Lawrence King, murdered at age 15

Sarongman · Post by **Sarongman** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:45 am

Our anger, here on this thread, is made the more personal as, in both cases, the victims stood out from the crowd as do we when we walk out skirted. Much of it has the "there but for the grace of God, go I" lurking just under the surface. We want society to protect all people regardless of their "differences" and this last outrage has OUTRAGED us to the point of wanting to do something permanent about it. Let's face it, most people have a foible that makes them "different" but they usually don't show that face to the world, having been taught (and bullied) not to stand out from the crowd. In the ideal world, people could drop their masks and be themselves and not a clone of all others.
I'm sure most here on this board would agree that we stand out from the crowd not through any form of exhibitionism but because we are determined to take up our right to wear what WE want to wear, and not be intimidated into conforming to the lowest common denominator by either discriminatory action or downright violence against our own selves. This is what makes the fate of the victims more personal to us and, therefore, sharpens our anger.

Website · Post by **crfriend** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:00 pm

Sarongman wrote: [...] I'm sure most here on this board would agree that we stand out from the crowd not through any form of exhibitionism but because we are determined to take up our right to wear what WE want to wear, and not be intimidated into conforming to the lowest common denominator by either discriminatory action or downright violence against our own selves. This is what makes the fate of the victims more personal to us and, therefore, sharpens our anger.

It should also serve to sharpen our sense of humanity and decency so it would serve to protect us from falling into the well of revenge that's so typical of the lowest-common-denominator -- because once we're in there, we're no better than they are. We should view these tragic events as object lessons that might galvanise us into positive action in helping to avert future incidents, not reactions once those future incidents have happened.

The world would be a vastly better place if tolerance was actually practised rather than just preached -- and that starts inside each and every individual. Sometimes it's not easy (been there, done that, and, to be perfectly honest, have failled on occasion), but it's critical to try.

Pythos · Post by **Pythos** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:25 pm

So what would you have done with these thugs? Catch, smack their little hands, and release them, knowing they have learned a lesson?

Why the hell should you or I have to pay for their continued existence when there are people out there who have hurt no one, living life without a house, or family, or other essentials? When there are animals that are killed just because no one loves them, (as pointed out by sapphire).

I keep hearing people here say revenge is all the people who think these thugs should be executed, and seem to completely overlook the fact, these kids are beyond rehabilitation. What would you do with them? Why don't you offer to take them in, and try to help them live in this terrible world. With this you take the risk of the little monsters killing you and your family. They are hell bound for this, and have nothing to lose.

Website · Post by **crfriend** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:18 pm

Pythos wrote:So what would you have done with these thugs? Catch, smack their little hands, and release them, knowing they have learned a lesson?

I believe I've been misread; I rather fervently want the swine off the street and isolated from society because they're a proven threat. However, once safely isolated, professionals who understand how the human mind works should really take an assay of what made the little buggers make the jump to lethal violence and make recommendations as to what we, as a society, can do to prevent further identical incidents. Dead men are rather useless when one is trying to understand drive, motive, and final trigger.

One other point that usually gets overlooked in capital cases is that it's actually cheaper to keep the criminal locked up for the rest of his natural days than it is to go through all the proceedings required to legally murder him. In short, capital punishment carries a damnably poor ROI when it comes to society.

I keep hearing people here say revenge is all the people who think these thugs should be executed, and seem to completely overlook the fact, these kids are beyond rehabilitation.

If they are beyond rehabilitation, then society will rightfully demand that the perpetrators be separated from society -- it's as simple as that. However, if they can be rehabilitated (less common, I'll admit, than it should be) then killing them early on is somewhat pointless.

SkirtDude · Post by **SkirtDude** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:24 pm

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Website · Post by **crfriend** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:31 pm

SkirtDude wrote:Under Virginia state law I can not serve as a juror in a case where death penalty is being considered because I attend a church (Quaker) that is opposes it. I consider that particular law laughably ironic.

This falls into the "It's not what's right, but rather what's legal" category -- and it's usually quite amazing how infrequently the two actually line up! At play here is, I suspect, the Virginia legislature's desire not to have their will (and, by proxy, Virginia society's) bypassed by what might be termed a "special interest group". Note that I'm not saying it's right, only legal.

Assuming that the state I live in had the death penalty, it's unlikely that I'd be allowed to serve on a jury in such a case because one of the questions that would be asked of potential jurors would without doubt be, "Do you believe in capital punishment?" (or something to that effect), and since the jury pool would be under oath, I would have to say, in clear conscience, "No." This, too, would be akin to the way that Virginia law seems to work from my read on this, but without an explicit exclusion of any particular class of individual.

sapphire · Post by **sapphire** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:43 pm

Massachusetts does not have the death penalty for humans at this time.

AMM · Post by **AMM** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:52 pm

Our anger, here on this thread, is made the more personal as, in both cases, the victims stood out from the crowd as do we when we walk out skirted. Much of it has the "there but for the grace of God, go I" lurking just under the surface. ...

We see ourselves in the faces of the victims.

Do we also see ourselves in the faces of the perpertrators?

My point was not that we should not be angry -- we all have hurts that are re-evoked when we hear or think about events like this one. My point was that when we do what many posts in this thread do -- when we dehumanize those we see as responsible for the hurts, call them "thugs" and "scum," the better to hate them without reservation -- we are walking the same path that people like Brandon did. We may not kill anyone like he did, but we drink from the same cup of poison and pass it around. Instead of healing our hurts, we nurse them, feed them, and make them stronger. And we offer up leashes for demagogues to lead us around by, in the same way that Brandon's fear of being thought "gay" offered his so-called "friends" a leash to jerk him around by.

I am not interested in how people here think the State should handle Brandon; it's not up to us, and I think that's just as well. I am more interested in what we do with the Brandon (and all the others names we use as icons of evil) within ourselves.

Website · Post by **crfriend** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:08 pm

AMM wrote:I am not interested in how people here think the State should handle Brandon; it's not up to us, and I think that's just as well. I am more interested in what we do with the Brandon (and all the others names we use as icons of evil) within ourselves.

Thank you, AMM. You have said it more eloquently than I might possibly ever have. Thank you.

SkirtDude · Post by **SkirtDude** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:58 am

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Pythos · Post by **Pythos** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:12 am

The idea of imprisoning them for life, and do psyc work on them to determine what caused them to do what they did is a terrific idea. However, it is my understanding that that kinda research is impermissible. Why? I have no clue, something to do with not wanting to be like the Nazis or something looney like that.

It would be great to learn what made these perps do what they did, but I am pretty sure most of the answers lie in the home life of these kids, and the families wealth.

But yes, you are correct when you say the dead cannot teach (or that was your gist ), and for this purpose I would happily pay for their continued existence as long as they continued to provide info concerning what caused their actions. After that...room and gun.

Sarongman · Post by **Sarongman** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:50 pm

I have been wrestling with my thoughts/conscience through the night and I have come to the regretful conclusion that I have painted myself into a corner regarding that murder of the innocent girl. I have let my anger (which has still not abated) rule my heart so, mea culpa, here is my apologia.
Whilst I believe that the actions of there perpetrators is no better than a couple, or pack, of out of control Pit Bulls killing in the same manner (and here is a dichotomy. There would be a general outpouring of relief at police shooting the dogs dead, or, their eventual rounding up and euthanising by the municipal pound.) we must take into account the fact that these killers are fellow human beings whether we like it or not, and I certainly do not. I asked myself during the night whether I, if on a capital case jury could, in all conscience, convict. I came to the rather swift conclusion that I could not. My reasoning is that, if I could not kill them myself, then what right have I got to sanction or authorise someone else to do this on my, or society's behalf? That these teenage killers are guilty of a terrible crime does not beg the question but, as AMM and crfriend posits, we cannot let ourselves fall into the trap of unreasoning and remorseless revenge through the horror of our response.
These killers must live out the rest of their days away from the society that nurtured them and, we, that society should now analyse what it is that made them that way and also have a good, long hard look at itself.

ChristopherJ · Post by **ChristopherJ** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:51 am

Just a little more news on the murder of a young girl because she was wearing Goth clothing. I know it is not directly related to skirts or kilts - but the issue of intolerance and hatred are the same whatever the target.

One boy had already pleaded guilty - the other has just been found guilty today. They are only 15 or 16 years old. They have been sentenced to life imprisonment and the judge will set the tariff (minimum time they must serve) next month.

Here is today's news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lanc ... 316601.stm

And here is an article about encountering hatred because of the (Goth) clothes you are wearing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lanc ... 314306.stm

Pythos · Post by **Pythos** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:08 am

I find it sad that some are changing the way they dress because of these unregulated thugs. Where are the cops? British cops were supposedly the best at maintaining the peace, what has happened there?

Society is getting worse, and blending in is the best way to not get picked on (wrong). Actually A-holes will just find other things to pick on you about.

Oh and the laughing punks that killed this goth.... put him in a cell with a gun. Let him do the job, or starve.

sambuka · Post by **sambuka** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:20 am

Pythos wrote:...Society is getting worse, and blending in is the best way to not get picked on (wrong)...

I could not disagree more. Everywhere I go now, I see people from all over the world, I taste food that I did not know even existed a few years back. Walking the streets of Montréal, Toronto, NY, San Fran, London, Paris, Munich or even Rome, I see an ever increasing melting pot of people from all walks of life, sporting different attire. Maybe I'm blind, but I've yet to see anyone being picked on because of a turban, robe, kilt or even djebellah. Even in the US.

Pythos wrote:...Oh and the laughing punks that killed this goth.... put him in a cell with a gun. Let him do the job, or starve.

Is this really the type of society you want to live in, a society in which it will be an eye for an eye, no matter what? If so, will you throw the first stone - or, in this case, the first loaded revolver?