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As I am not a Christian or Jew, but I would be interested to know what men were wearing when Deuteronomy was written. Were they all in jeans? Slacks? Tracksuit bottoms" Cargo shorts?

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 2:04 pm As I am not a Christian or Jew, but I would be interested to know what men were wearing when Deuteronomy was written. Were they all in jeans? Slacks? Tracksuit bottoms" Cargo shorts?

That answer is simple what a lot of people refer to a robe, to which trying to claim isn't a dress.

Like anything else, class and status have a bearing on things. The wealthier would be wearing robes, and the plebes would have had tunics which are simpler (and cheaper) to make, and there were subtle differences between men's and women's attire. Recall that there was no mass production at the time.

Face it, even without that colossal botch in translation committed in the King James Bible, Deuteronomy is a lengthy parable about Deception, much along the line of "Thou shalt not lie" -- and especially lie in order to get out of doing something expected of you because of your status or sex. There are also the problems with "mixing of fibres" and assorted dietary restrictions. In short, it doesn't work in the modern world -- AND IS OBSOLETE DOCTRINE anyway.

The way it's used is also highly offensive to those who it doesn't apply to, thus we should jettison it like the pabulum it is -- in precisely the same way we should not use hate speech, say, referring to "[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]" for using it gives it credence, and we shouldn't be doing that.

[rad-fem hate-speech redacted] definitely does exist and is how the patriarchy enforces control over men and women. No wonder it is demonized especially by women. It’s a good thing that I’m secure in my femininity.

jamie001 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:36 pm[rad-fem hate-speech redacted] definitely does exist and is how the patriarchy enforces control over men and women.

Once again, guys, let's refrain from using hate-speech in this context, because we are doing ourselves no favours whatsoever in offering live ammunition to the enemy.

In no way, shape, or form is classical masculinity "toxic". Full stop. I can see machismo being regarded so, but to tar and feather just about every single man alive as being "toxic" is simply stupid, arbitrary, and, indeed "toxic" in and of itself.

Furthermore, "The Patriarchy" (if it ever existed) is long dead; the rad-fems have won that fight already. They rule the roost now. Let's not empower them by parroting their rhetoric.

If people want to make such a big deal of Deuteronomy 22:5, what about 1 Corinthians chapter 11 where the Apostle Paul admonishes men to worship with uncovered heads and women with covered heads? On one hand we see bishops on up to the Pope wearing mitres and Eastern Orthodox clergy wearing head coverings, while in the western catholic (Roman Catholic and protestant) traditions hardly any women wear head coverings.
And there is the admonishment in 1 Corinthians 14:34 in which women are to keep silent. Does that mean women should not sing in choirs and only boys, countertenors, and castrati should sing the treble parts?

John

crfriend wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:00 pm

jamie001 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:36 pm[rad-fem hate-speech redacted] definitely does exist and is how the patriarchy enforces control over men and women.

Once again, guys, let's refrain from using hate-speech in this context, because we are doing ourselves no favours whatsoever in offering live ammunition to the enemy.

In no way, shape, or form is classical masculinity "toxic". Full stop. I can see machismo being regarded so, but to tar and feather just about every single man alive as being "toxic" is simply stupid, arbitrary, and, indeed "toxic" in and of itself.

Furthermore, "The Patriarchy" (if it ever existed) is long dead; the rad-fems have won that fight already. They rule the roost now. Let's not empower them by parroting their rhetoric.

I for one am sick and tired of this "[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]" and radical feminist ideas. Why can't people simply treat others with dignity as every human was created in the image of God?
Last night I wore a sleeveless maxi dress with low heels, makeup, and painted fingernails to choir rehearsal. And one of the pieces we rehearsed was Mikhail Glinka's Cherubic Hymn. I sing second bass, and that part in the key of D major contains a lot of D2's, one ledger line below the bass staff. Nobody else in the choir can reach that low.
So I definitely have both feminine and masculine aspects.

John

moonshadow wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 2:53 pm

rivegauche wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 2:08 pm 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

That makes sense as once a person dies and their physical body rots in the ground... how would gender be determined in such a case?

The sex of a skeleton can be determined scientifically. There are significant differences in bone structure.

But more to the point, the Apostles' Creed states: "I believe in... the resurrection of the body and life everlasting, amen." The Nicene Creed similarly concludes with: "the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, amen." So actually, traditional Christian teaching is that our bodies will be reunited with our souls at some point after death.

Dust wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:53 pm The sex of a skeleton can be determined scientifically. There are significant differences in bone structure

You misunderstand what I'm asking...

The body is gone, when the "person" (spirit) acends to heaven, how is gender determined? The gender of the spirit, or soul?

I believe that in this answer lies the true essence of "gender".

moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:57 pm

Dust wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:53 pm The sex of a skeleton can be determined scientifically. There are significant differences in bone structure

You misunderstand what I'm asking...

The body is gone, when the "person" (spirit) acends to heaven, how is gender determined? The gender of the spirit, or soul?

I believe that in this answer lies the true essence of "gender".

I think you missed the more important point in my second paragraph:

Dust wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:53 pm But more to the point, the Apostles' Creed states: "I believe in... the resurrection of the body and life everlasting, amen." The Nicene Creed similarly concludes with: "the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, amen." So actually, traditional Christian teaching is that our bodies will be reunited with our souls at some point after death.

We are not, as some like to say, "a ghost driving a meat covered skeleton" or whatever. Our body is a part of us, part of the whole. The physical is not evil. We are both physical and spiritual beings. The animals are only physical, and the angels are only spiritual. Only humans have both a physical body and an immortal soul.

We will get our physical bodies back, resurrected at the Last Judgement. A few people already have their bodies in heaven: Moses, Elijah, and Mary among them. The rest of us need to wait. That is why the Church discourages cremation, by the way...

JohnH wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:41 pm If people want to make such a big deal of Deuteronomy 22:5, what about 1 Corinthians chapter 11 where the Apostle Paul admonishes men to worship with uncovered heads and women with covered heads? On one hand we see bishops on up to the Pope wearing mitres and Eastern Orthodox clergy wearing head coverings, while in the western catholic (Roman Catholic and protestant) traditions hardly any women wear head coverings.

So, yes I know a number of women (my wife included) who still wear a veil in church. This was standard until at least the 1950's in the Catholic Church. In some parishes, it is still common.

Men removing their hats to pray had always been common, in my experience. I do this wherever I am, if it's outside, inside, whatever. It seems far more common than women veiling. Roman Catholic priests traditionally had special hats, which they would wear in procession, but they would take them off for the prayers of the Mass. Hat etiquette used to be taken very seriously, and had fairly detailed rules (which were different for men and women, priests, the owner of a building, etc.), but almost no one but the military take it seriously anymore...

JohnH wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:41 pm And there is the admonishment in 1 Corinthians 14:34 in which women are to keep silent. Does that mean women should not sing in choirs and only boys, countertenors, and castrati should sing the treble parts?

Maybe not a full ban on them singing, but at least on them reading the readings, or leading prayers and music. In some traditions, the readings are all sung, so this is largely the same thing.

On a practical level, I find that when women lead the singing in church, the vast majority of men are silent, but when a man is leading, many (if not most) of the men in the congregation will sing, and just as many (or more) women in the congregation sing as did when it was lead by another woman. I'm not sure if this is simply due to vocal range (it is sometimes for me, and my voice isn't that deep), or if there is something else (psychology?), but I'm not the only person I've talked to that noticed it.

The whole castrati thing is a dark bit of church history, that is thankfully over. While eunuchs are mentioned in Scripture, to my knowledge, creating more has never been officially encouraged as any sort of teaching. Rather, it was a barbaric work-around by musician's who wanted skilled, high-pitched voices, and didn't want to keep training new boys.

Turning Liturgy into a performance is always a mistake. If the prayer becomes an excuse for the music instead of the music helping with the prayer, you are doing it wrong. God and prayer need to be the focus, not the person singing. Many instruments were historically banned as well, likely in part for this reason. While some amazing music has been written for use in church, it is easy to lose focus. And while it's not an uncommon problem today, it is clearly nothing new.

Dust wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:19 am

moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:57 pm

Dust wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:53 pm The sex of a skeleton can be determined scientifically. There are significant differences in bone structure

You misunderstand what I'm asking...

The body is gone, when the "person" (spirit) acends to heaven, how is gender determined? The gender of the spirit, or soul?

I believe that in this answer lies the true essence of "gender".

I think you missed the more important point in my second paragraph:

Dust wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:53 pm But more to the point, the Apostles' Creed states: "I believe in... the resurrection of the body and life everlasting, amen." The Nicene Creed similarly concludes with: "the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, amen." So actually, traditional Christian teaching is that our bodies will be reunited with our souls at some point after death.

We are not, as some like to say, "a ghost driving a meat covered skeleton" or whatever. Our body is a part of us, part of the whole. The physical is not evil. We are both physical and spiritual beings. The animals are only physical, and the angels are only spiritual. Only humans have both a physical body and an immortal soul.

We will get our physical bodies back, resurrected at the Last Judgement. A few people already have their bodies in heaven: Moses, Elijah, and Mary among them. The rest of us need to wait. That is why the Church discourages cremation, by the way...

Maybe we will be lucky and get new beautiful physical girl bodies!

moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:57 pmThe body is gone, when the "person" (spirit) acends to heaven, how is gender determined? The gender of the spirit, or soul?

I would suspect it would track, fairly closely, what the person was (in corporeal form) before dying. Thus, it would be an aggregation of traits in varying intensities that would be the giveaway. Men, in heaven (or in hell), would have a different aggregation of traits than women would (at least if they were healthy and well-adjusted) when corporeal.

Such is "gender". It's not one specific thing, but rather a complex mosaic of many pieces. Healthy, normal males have tendencies as do healthy normal women -- and there are differences to be sure, but they can be subtle. It's in the subtlety that we lose touch with things, and I'm not even going to go into the sociology of the problem, because it has now become a very real problem indeed. It seems the whole thing has been turned topsy-turvy in the past 50 years, and is the prime driver of why I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life -- I am insufficiently homosexual to be attracted to "modern women".

I wonder if any other guys are in the same situation as I am.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:57 pm

Dust wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:53 pm The sex of a skeleton can be determined scientifically. There are significant differences in bone structure

You misunderstand what I'm asking...

The body is gone, when the "person" (spirit) acends to heaven, how is gender determined? The gender of the spirit, or soul?

I believe that in this answer lies the true essence of "gender".

Gener is a continuum. You are referring to biological sex. I believe a spirit does not have a biological sex.

jamie001 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:29 am

Dust wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:19 am We are not, as some like to say, "a ghost driving a meat covered skeleton" or whatever. Our body is a part of us, part of the whole. The physical is not evil. We are both physical and spiritual beings. The animals are only physical, and the angels are only spiritual. Only humans have both a physical body and an immortal soul.

We will get our physical bodies back, resurrected at the Last Judgement. A few people already have their bodies in heaven: Moses, Elijah, and Mary among them. The rest of us need to wait. That is why the Church discourages cremation, by the way...

Maybe we will be lucky and get new beautiful physical girl bodies!

I'm going to go out in a limb and say no. We get our bodies back, and just as Christ's body after His Resurrection still has the wounds of His Crucifixion, we will likely have all our same parts. But I don't think we will need clothes, so no being forced to wear pants...