skirtcafe.org

Coder wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:47 pmI think the concern is rape, flat and simple. If a female is by herself and a man enters the bathroom it's an easy scenario for something like that to happen in people's imaginations - what the actual % is I don't know it's probably very very low - but we aren't talking about rational thought - it's emotional.

The odds of a random man raping a random woman aren't just very very low, they're infinitesimal. Normal men simply don't behave that way no matter how the "feminists" try to paint it. We know better. The fact that it's a criminal act carrying very heavy penalties isn't why -- it's the fact that we know it's wrong.

But men in general are considered "toxic", just ask some of the people here (who really should know better). So we're stuck with the twisted point of view. And that view will not be broken without great force of will and effort. That the US is terminally screwed up in regards to anything sexual is down to our Puritanical and Calvinist background, and we're not going to be able to change that, either. Men are simply stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Gyms and swimming areas have communal changing areas - the gym my wife and I attend does. I see another naked man in our open men's area ( no cubicles ) pretty much every time I go. The female changing area is open and similar. The women at the gym that we socialise with have said that they would not want a naked man in their changing area irrespective of whether he "feels" that he is a woman or not. Not while (s)he has a penis.

by Coder » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:47 am


The main problems I see with communal dressing spaces: it is very easy to invade one's privacy, you can walk into a space and accidentally see something you don't want to see, someone can force themselves on you and even if you cry out the emotional damage may already be done.

Not only are the vast majority to public restrooms designed to allow privacy, I'd postulate that this is yet another example of regimented conformity in our thinking -- that seeing the bodies of people of the opposite gender is somehow going to destroy the world in the same way some think MIS are going to do some dreadful harm -- it is the inability to move beyond many of our absurd habitual practices.

In fact, I'd postulate that if everyone grew up from birth where nudity and communal dressing rooms were the norm, we would greatly reduce, almost eliminate the incidences of sexual abuse and garner a great deal more respect for all persons regardless of the size, shape and assortment of body parts. Instead, society makes a point of exploiting those differences for money and power imposing much unnecessary judgment and psychological pressure on all of us.

There are many reasons why people do not want their bodies to be seen -- as well as many reasons why people do not want to see the naked bodies of others.  This goes far beyond binary differences due to sex* and some people are more sensitive about this than others.  The simple way is to provide a single communal changing area for those who don't mind it and individual cubicals for those who want privacy.

[* Why only divide the changing area by birth sex?  Why not by BMI?  Two, one or no breasts?  Size of penis/clitoris?  Limb deformities?  Hair colour?  Skin colour?  ...oh, hang on, some countries used to do that and we agreed it was wrong.]

Faldaguy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:21 am In fact, I'd postulate that if everyone grew up from birth where nudity and communal dressing rooms were the norm, we would greatly reduce, almost eliminate the incidences of sexual abuse and garner a great deal more respect for all persons regardless of the size, shape and assortment of body parts. Instead, society makes a point of exploiting those differences for money and power imposing much unnecessary judgment and psychological pressure on all of us.

Exactly! I also think this would significantly reduce the desire for porn that demeans people so much.

faldaguy, it's not that our gym group would be psychologically or emotionally damaged [0] it's just that the women in the group do not want a physical male in their communal area irrespective of how (s)he sees himself. I respect their feelings and would agree with them. There is a "family" room available to them.

[0] They are in their 60's and 70's.

Aside from it causing much vexation and the obvious typo, am I missing something here?
The question is regarding English policy with regard to school uniforms.
However, you feel about the connection, the rights, or wrongs of allowing trans-females to enter cis-female havens is a wholly separate issue in reality. In schools, the Party Line or even outright Legality can count for a lot less than the laws of the Blackboard Jungle.
Please feel free to point out all the deeply thought out reasons why I am wrong but, believe me, nothing will be changed one iota.
Steve.

In thinking about this at the meta-level, I'm actually glad that the ruling came down (if it really did) that there is no legal duty to allow a (tiny) subset of the population to ignore established precedent, for to allow such a thing would have immediately created a minority that possess special rights above and beyond what everybody else has to deal with,

The proper way to deal with this would be to either completely abolish gender-based attire rules or to rigidly enforce those on all (which is going to really torque off the females). You can't have it both ways and have it be fair.

crfriend wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:57 am The proper way to deal with this would be to either completely abolish gender-based attire rules or to rigidly enforce those on all (which is going to really torque off the females). You can't have it both ways and have it be fair.

I am not saying that the ultimate legislation will be perfect and it is drawing much criticism but the Scottish rules do appear to be headed in that direction.
At present the actual policy is decided at Local Authority level so can vary but this is the current guideline from the Scottish Government;

"If your school doesn't have a school uniform, it should be clear that young people can wear what they want, including skirts, trousers, shorts, regardless of gender identity, as long as this complies with school guidelines."
https://www.gov.scot/publications/suppo ... s/pages/3/

The non-state private schools make their own rules individually and I'd assume that the gender based rules are enforced quite rigidly. Being Scotland, kilts for the boys are also a possibility?
The only one I know of is the local and that is a dress Gordon tartan kilted skirt for the girls with trousers for the boys.
I have witnessed boys in kilts but that was before they went co-ed, a very long time ago.

However, I still believe that the kids themselves will enforce their own rules as they see fit but maybe, just maybe, they will deal with it in a more enlightened and wiser manner than us, their so called elders and betters.
Steve.

Boys and girls should be able to choose what school uniform that they want to wear. In other words, boy can choose to wear a girl uniform and vice versa. Biology sex should not choose the uniform for the student.

Well, it would help if we stopped labelling things like a “girl uniform”.

When I wear a skirt, it’s nothing to do with girls / feminine. It’s a skirt. No gender assigned.

The sooner we remove gender association from most clothing, the better.

Ray wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:13 pmThe sooner we remove gender association from most clothing, the better.

There we go. What could be simpler?

crfriend wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:33 am

Ray wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:13 pmThe sooner we remove gender association from most clothing, the better.

There we go. What could be simpler?

Not much I reckon except for the intellects of that portion of humans who cannot or will not accept that concept.
Sorry, Ray but to the world and his dog, skirt still indicates feminine and will continue to do so for a time yet.
If the idea of a boy freely wearing a skirt as school uniform took hold that would be a huge hurdle overcome.
We know how difficult it can be as adult males but for a young teen, balls of steel and iron nerve would be needed.
Steve.

Stevie wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:13 pm
Not much I reckon except for the intellects of that portion of humans who cannot or will not accept that concept.

I agree but I also think a point is being overlooked: As long long as everyone else is doing something then the herd will ignore the change.
Example:
I was at Quaywest waterslide park in Goodrington last weekend. Once paid you find yourself directly in the changing rooms, complete with cubicles, lockers, showers and toilets. Nobody batted an eye. Girls, Boys, Men, Women, families all mucked in together. If there had been segregated changing areas there would have been trouble if the boundaries were crossed.

I've never been to a place with an open, gender-free changing area but I can see that, as long as the concept was advertised and known before entering the establishment, it could work and in that case obviously does. Perhaps that is what we should see more of.