skirtcafe.org

I have carefully considered the comments of everyone in reference my posting. First, I am sorry if I offended anyone. I have since realized that one hostility is not negated by another. I should not have labeled the agitator as such that I did. I violated my own rule of not labeling. I detest labeling and being labeled. I made the post in haste. I was angered by it as it reminded me so much of childhood experiences and why I hate living here. This is not an excuse to justify my actions in any way. I do not normally post things without thinking them through better. All I can say is that is has been one of the worst and stressful years of my life. I lost mom in February and watched a world famous hospital give her what I would consider chaotic care at best. I then became very ill shortly after with Covid. I am still dealing with side effects from that and frankly am scared to death. There have been many times that I get some where and have to call my wife to help me remember how to get home. This only colludes with my fears of getting dementia as that is what mom had. Further, I have been dealing with an 11mm kidney stone that agonizes me every day. My surgery keeps getting postponed because they are hesitant to anesthetize me due to Covid complications. There is a lot more that I am dealing with, but I do not want to bore anyone with details.

Again I am not making excuses. I fully accept that I was wrong. On a side note, we are making plans to move within the next year due to the decline in my mental status. We figure it is best to not keep waiting for someday, because that some day may never come.

Don't be too hard on yourself FFA. It is widely understood most people don't vote at all, but in Tennessee, those who do seem to support politicians that enact legislation to dehumanize millions of people.

In a democracy, a community (or state) can be fairly assessed by the leaders they [the people] select to manage that community.

Everyone says they stand on the side of freedom and personal liberty, but actions speak louder than words, and according to the election results... well, you see how it is...

Yeah.... way to go Tennessee...

You win the prize...

https://wcyb.com/news/local/tennessee-r ... ing-to-hrc

Now who elects these politicians??

Oh yeah, IT'S THE CITIZENS OF TENNESSEE!

As for Governor Lee, I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire!

That is one evil, rotten soul!

moonshadow wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 10:55 am Yeah.... way to go Tennessee...

You win the prize...

https://wcyb.com/news/local/tennessee-r ... ing-to-hrc

Now who elects these politicians??

Oh yeah, IT'S THE CITIZENS OF TENNESSEE!

As for Governor Lee, I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire!

That is one evil, rotten soul!

Signs stating who can use the bathrooms?
Parental permission before teaching kids about sexual and controversial topics?
Girl's sports for biological females only?

Wow... Common sense stuff. Where's the issue?

Dust said:

Signs stating who can use the bathrooms?
Parental permission before teaching kids about sexual and controversial topics?
Girl's sports for biological females only?

Wow... Common sense stuff. Where's the issue?

Albert Einstein is quoted as having said something like, 'Common sense is nothing but the accumulated prejudices of previous times.' So let me break these prejudices down one at a time.

"Signs stating who can use the bathrooms?" No; the question is, "How do we define who is a male and who is a female in such contexts?" Amongst the people who have studied that question in a scientific manner, it is a settled question: People are who they say they are -- male, female or other -- no matter what other conclusions other people might come to if they were allowed to inspect their genitalia. What's more most human's can make that self-identification by the age of 4. So a law requiring people choose public restrooms on the basis of what their original birth certificates couldn't be more misguided.

Don't believe me, look up a recent documentary on the challenges faced by transwomen in the TV and movie industry. It's got a one-word title that escapes me right now such as "Transformations" or something similar. Anyway, it consisted of interviews with one drop-dead gorgeous actress after another and about half-way through I wondered, "OK, so when are we going to hear from some trans-women?" It was a "Holy Sh*t!!" moment when I realized they and the succeeding beauties were ALL trans-women.

"Parental permission before teaching kids about sexual and controversial topics?"

I don't know how it works in Sweden, but here is the US teachers have academic freedom. More to the point, EVERY topic is controversial; it is the freely and publicly-elected school board to decide which ones get taught and how, not each parent. Parents can teach their own kids what they like at home; public schools are meant to prepare ALL children for the real world as it really exists. Not just what some self-appointed bigot decides children should be taught, reality be damned.

"Girl's sports for biological females only?"

Trans-girls are girls and deserve the same benefits of team sports as any other girl.

As to the question of unfair advantage, it's a myth. According to the fitness scholars who have researched the issue, mediocre male athletes who transition and continue to compete in their sport prove to be mediocre performers amongst their new peers.

As to the absurd notion that some boy is going to pretend to be transitioning so he can get an athletic scholarship to college ... Really? Considering the amount of opprobrium heaped on the transgendered? Not to mention the practical problems of how and when this faux female athlete is going to "transition" back to manhood? Or is he just going to maintain the pretense for the rest of his natural life because going to Yale on a women's field hockey scholarship is going to give him such an advantage as to be worth it?

"Wow... Common sense stuff. Where's the issue?"

Does any of what I had to say make ANY sense whatsoever to you?

In the UK (and also in Scotland as there is legislation going through the Scottish Parliament) there is already wide tolerance. The legal debate is actually making matters worse by forcing people to confront issues that usually bother only a few and go under the radar. In the UK you can use whatever toilet you want legally. I have never had to use a toilet when out in a skirt in male mode but when dressed as a woman I have used toilets about four times in all. Except in one case I asked first but there was never any hassle from anyone. Being dressed as a woman in public when obviously a man gets no more attention than a man in a skirt. The whole media frenzy is a fuss about nothing. I get annoyed when fairly mild remarks from J K Rowling generate widespread hatred out of all proportion to the alleged offence. How many trans people actually want this hatred heaped on mild critics? When Daniel Ratcliff and Emma Watson had a go at the woman who made them millionaires I am afraid I wrote them off as people. TERFs are not good but nor is the hatred of TERFs (or worse - hatred of people perceived to be TERFs who are not). I do not believe that J K Rowling is a TERF. I am not saying that no one in society wants to harms trans people but the law already protects trans people, as it protects any woman in a toilet who is abused in there by a man in a dress, be the abuser a transwoman or just a man in a dress - or for that matter a cis woman.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am ...
"How do we define who is a male and who is a female in such contexts?" Amongst the people who have studied that question in a scientific manner, it is a settled question: People are who they say they are -- male, female or other -- no matter what other conclusions other people might come to if they were allowed to inspect their genitalia.
...

Help me understand this. How can this be studied in a scientific manner? It would seem to more be a matter of definitions.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am I don't know how it works in Sweden, but here is the US teachers have academic freedom. More to the point, EVERY topic is controversial; it is the freely and publicly-elected school board to decide which ones get taught and how, not each parent.

Hmm, can you explain to me then all the noise we hear about states in the US passing laws requiring teaching intelligent design/banning teaching evolution. Since from what you say that shouldn't be possible. Perhaps it isn't possible but they try anyway?

Here there's a curriculum that students will be expected to learn if they want to pass Year 12 exams. If the school wants to teach them intelligent design, then I suppose they can, but the students will be expected to answer questions on evolution. They don't have to believe it. That's the whole point of science after all, it works whether or not you believe in it.

We still have the catholic/protestant/etc split here a lot since the constitution guarantees it. If you want to start a school teaching the Flying Spaghetti Monster you can, as long as you teach the stuff the students are required to know.

Jim wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:20 am

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am ...
"How do we define who is a male and who is a female in such contexts?" Amongst the people who have studied that question in a scientific manner, it is a settled question: People are who they say they are -- male, female or other -- no matter what other conclusions other people might come to if they were allowed to inspect their genitalia.
...

Help me understand this. How can this be studied in a scientific manner? It would seem to more be a matter of definitions.

I too wondered. I figured it had to do with the variations of chromosomes, but I would be weary if I put too much stock in that being the defining characteristic of what it means to be truly "trans", and I can explain my thoughts on this if it should become necessary.

Nevertheless, lest I put the cart before the horse, I'll wait to hear what Dave has to say.

rode_kater wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:07 pm Here there's a curriculum that students will be expected to learn if they want to pass Year 12 exams. If the school wants to teach them intelligent design, then I suppose they can, but the students will be expected to answer questions on evolution. They don't have to believe it. That's the whole point of science after all, it works whether or not you believe in it.

I think the states decide the main academic direction of local school systems, with federal guidelines.

I don't know of any state that teaches intelligent design exclusively. I've heard of laws that allow local school boards to have their schools teach it along side of evolution. That's usually where the debate stems from.

Private/Religious/Home schooling has a little more leeway with regards to this, but my understanding is that regardless of what type of school the pupil is attending, state wide standards still must be met.

There is an irony here from my own experience in the Bedford County school system. The fact is, we were being forced to pray in schools as late as the mid 1980's. I can still remember the words to the prayer we had to recite as it was read over the p.a. system. My father was surprised at this as this practice was banned in the mid 1960's. But the irony is that I don't recall my time in the public school system to be particularly religious. Early on, we were taught science as it was understood in the 1980's and 1990's.

It was a pretty exciting time to be in a science class all told. We were only twenty years from the moon landing, the space shuttle was in full swing, Bill Nye was on TV. Compared to the school systems of 2021, I seem to recall my schooling of the mid 80's through 2000 to be surprisingly secular. In fact, the only time I really heard a "God" mentioned after the forced prayer finally stopped in the mid 80's was my sixth grade teacher, Mrs. Ellison who enjoyed talking about Egyptian mythology.

Frankly, it was the first time I had ever heard the word "God" used in a sentence that didn't revolve around Judea-Christian theology. My mind was blown when I learned that other cultures had different views of what "God" was.

American parents today would burn a school down if they found out that their kids were actually told that the Christian "God" isn't the only one in the world's cultural history.

Another observation I like to bring up to folks is how LGBT simply wasn't mentioned at all. When I was in school, being openly gay was still dangerous. No boy kid who valved his safety would dare confess to be attracted to other boys, and you'd better not be a sissy either. I didn't even know crossdressing was a thing until I stumbled upon it after a few months of exploring this new thing call "the world wide web" in the late 1990s. I knew I liked scuffing around in mom's flats and wearing a towel around my waist to pretend that I was a girl growing up, but the thought that this was actually an active subculture never occurred to me.

Yet despite my ignorance of all of this, thanks to the internet and a little open-mindedness, I learned.

And that's my message to the ultra conservative neo-cons that want to codify cramming religion down everyones throat....

And that message can be summed up thusly:

"I was forced to pray when I was in school, never taught anything about counter cultures, LGBT, or other "liberal" subjects, and even raised by the stereotypical American bigoted family, and yet, despite all of that, I still managed to grow up and learn anyway. You can't stop this."

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am Dust said:

Signs stating who can use the bathrooms?
Parental permission before teaching kids about sexual and controversial topics?
Girl's sports for biological females only?

Wow... Common sense stuff. Where's the issue?

Albert Einstein is quoted as having said something like, 'Common sense is nothing but the accumulated prejudices of previous times.' So let me break these prejudices down one at a time.

G. K. Chesterton argued that tradition was the most democratic of institutions, because it gives our ancestors a vote.

I would say that if common sense is something accumulated from the past, it is not our prejudices but rather the wisdom from the past that has been handed down.

Sometimes it seems that people all too often have lost track of the "why" and only remember the "what." It leaves people assuming that things were arbitrary habits of society, when there actually was an excellent reason for doing things a certain way. Getting rid of old practices when we don't understand the "why" of them can be unexpectedly perilous.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am "Signs stating who can use the bathrooms?" No; the question is, "How do we define who is a male and who is a female in such contexts?" Amongst the people who have studied that question in a scientific manner, it is a settled question: People are who they say they are -- male, female or other -- no matter what other conclusions other people might come to if they were allowed to inspect their genitalia. What's more most human's can make that self-identification by the age of 4. So a law requiring people choose public restrooms on the basis of what their original birth certificates couldn't be more misguided.

It's not a birth certificate we are talking about. It's who enters a physical intimate space being dependent on the physical reality of a person's body.

And no, a 4 year old doesn't know. Most gender-dysphoric kids grow out of it if left to develop naturally.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am Don't believe me, look up a recent documentary on the challenges faced by transwomen in the TV and movie industry. It's got a one-word title that escapes me right now such as "Transformations" or something similar. Anyway, it consisted of interviews with one drop-dead gorgeous actress after another and about half-way through I wondered, "OK, so when are we going to hear from some trans-women?" It was a "Holy Sh*t!!" moment when I realized they and the succeeding beauties were ALL trans-women.

Enough personal trainers, drugs, plastic surgery, makeup, and custom fitted clothes will make nearly anyone look gorgeous. These are people paid to look good. Just like how Hollywood shows everyone as impossibly fit and flawless all the time.

I could just as easily tell you to go watch videos by de-transitioning folks. They are heartbreaking. Girls who now have to shave their faces daily with voices too deep to hide, trying desperately to live as the women they realized that they were all along. Men permanently scarred by drugs and surgery, wishing they could take it all back.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am "Parental permission before teaching kids about sexual and controversial topics?"

I don't know how it works in Sweden, but here is the US teachers have academic freedom. More to the point, EVERY topic is controversial; it is the freely and publicly-elected school board to decide which ones get taught and how, not each parent. Parents can teach their own kids what they like at home; public schools are meant to prepare ALL children for the real world as it really exists. Not just what some self-appointed bigot decides children should be taught, reality be damned.

Academic freedom is great at the college level. Robust debate of ideas is, at least in part, what college is supposed to be about. Unfortunately all too often even there, students (and some professors) are silenced if they fail to agree with the latest trendy ideas.

Pushing these ideas into the minds of kids too young to reason is wrong. Some people want to talk trans stuff with kindergarten kids who should be learning to read and to count. We can have a discussion of the years in between, and how these difficult subjects should be broached, but ultimately, it is the parents who have the primary responsibility for the education of their kids.

Teachers should not be pushing this behind the backs of parents to further their own ideology. At the very least, parents should know what is being taught and when. We are seeing a backlash right now, because during the shutdown, a lot of parents saw what the teachers were doing for the first time. And all too often, public schools are basically a parent's only option, and any questions asked or objections raised with teachers or school boards are met with condescension, silence, or denials.

To those who look at the biological reality of the situation, rather than feelings, it is the trans-activist teacher who is the "self-appointed bigot decid[ing what] children should be taught, reality be damned." I invite you to stop and put yourself in their shoes for a moment.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am "Girl's sports for biological females only?"

Trans-girls are girls and deserve the same benefits of team sports as any other girl.

As to the question of unfair advantage, it's a myth. According to the fitness scholars who have researched the issue, mediocre male athletes who transition and continue to compete in their sport prove to be mediocre performers amongst their new peers.

It's not about mediocre athletes. It's about the really good ones. A male athlete just shy of qualifying at an elite level will often dominate at the same elite level as a female competitor, post transition. This is not fair to the rest of the female field.

Did you follow the MtF trans weightlifter at the Olympics? No age categories, and still made the cut despite being far older than any other weightlifter in the female category. Had previously dominated in international competition that was grouped by age.

Or the female MMA fighter that went up against an MtF trans fighter, and wound up with a broken eye socket, among other thing things. After getting out of the hospital, she described feeling far more over powered in that fight than anything she had ever experienced fighting any other woman. This coming from a world-class professional fighter.

Men's bone structure is different. Our muscles are denser. We are on average taller, heavier, faster, and more powerful. We simply move differently. While some of these things have a lot of overlap on a societal level, at the extremes where elite athletes are, the differences are profound.

At least once we have gone through puberty, some of that simply cannot be changed, no matter how long someone is on hormones, or how many surgeries they undergo. But the hormones that cause these developmental changes start their work in utero. So I don't see any way to invite trans folks into sex segregated sport that is fair to biological females. I know that's not what they want to hear, but that's reality.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am As to the absurd notion that some boy is going to pretend to be transitioning so he can get an athletic scholarship to college ... Really? Considering the amount of opprobrium heaped on the transgendered? Not to mention the practical problems of how and when this faux female athlete is going to "transition" back to manhood? Or is he just going to maintain the pretense for the rest of his natural life because going to Yale on a women's field hockey scholarship is going to give him such an advantage as to be worth it?

I doubt this will be the sole reason that almost anyone transitions. But a benefit is there. More likely, they do it for other reasons, or a combination of reasons, but they do have this advantage.

But to say that the world is just such a hard place for trans-people, thus only "real" trans people transition, is just silly. In some circles, trans folk are the new cool kids. And only the most woke parents have trans kids and support them. They will get a huge social boost in the most liberal of social circles.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:57 am "Wow... Common sense stuff. Where's the issue?"

Does any of what I had to say make ANY sense whatsoever to you?

Yeah, I understood the words you wrote. I see the arguments you are trying to make. I've spent an insane amount of time reading up on both sides, and learning the language that has been created to discuss this stuff, so that I can understand both sides. I'm not new to these discussions.

You make some thought provoking points Dust. I can not deny that.

My issue is with the hypocrisy of what the far right is doing with regards to the trans issue in schools.

It's a scandal to suggest that a boy who says he's a girl should be respected as a girl, and yet these people push, and push hard to indoctrinate young children into ridiculous religious ideologies, such as creationism and climate change denial.

I'll grant that there is still a lot our culture is still trying to unravel about the gender situation, but it's pretty obvious the planet is more than 6,000 years old, and yet these people lie and brainwash young children into believing otherwise. -- And this is celebrated in rural American culture!

There is also absolutely no evidence whatsoever that what we (humans) conceive "God" to be actually exist. And we've been seeking that evidence for thousands of years. Nobody has come up with anything concrete yet. Yet young school children are expected to "trust in God" in public schools, and are indoctrinated with theology like the ten commandments, etc.

I don't know a lot, but I know this, drop for drop, there has been a hell of a lot more blood spilled during the course of human civilization in the name of fictional sky daddies than there ever has been over boys who claimed to be girls, other than their own blood spilled simply for making the proclamation.

To put it simply, when the hard right drops the religious bull sh!t, then I will sit down and reason with them about trans issues.

Until then, make believe is make believe. If we are to be expected to respect one anothers concepts of reality, then that respect must run both ways!

Dust wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:01 am I could just as easily tell you to go watch videos by de-transitioning folks. They are heartbreaking. Girls who now have to shave their faces daily with voices too deep to hide, trying desperately to live as the women they realized that they were all along. Men permanently scarred by drugs and surgery, wishing they could take it all back.

They made a mistake. And for that, they have my sympathy. But people make their choices, and for better or worse, they have to live with those choices.

At least they had the choice.

ALSO

Let me just say before I call it a night.

I realize I've been pretty abrupt about religion on my last post. Please understand my objective was not to offend, but to make a point.

Those who can peacefully practice their faith and respect others are fine by me. However many people in power in my region can best be described as "the Christian Taliban". It's pretty bad and it destroys lives. I'm currently watching it [religion] destroy one life close to me now, and it's hard to watch.

You make lots of really good points. A few things stand out for me.

Dust wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:01 am I would say that if common sense is something accumulated from the past, it is not our prejudices but rather the wisdom from the past that has been handed down.

There were never any laws about who could use which bathroom until recently. I think there is some wisdom there we're ignoring.

It's a private space and should be treated as such, by everyone, no matter what sex/gender/orientation/presentation. Basically, don't be an a**hole. Unfortunately, being an a**hole is not illegal.

Dust wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:01 am Pushing these ideas into the minds of kids too young to reason is wrong. Some people want to talk trans stuff with kindergarten kids who should be learning to read and to count. We can have a discussion of the years in between, and how these difficult subjects should be broached, but ultimately, it is the parents who have the primary responsibility for the education of their kids.

Isn't that the age at which children start developing a gender identity? As such it seems to me the perfect age to discuss the issue, in an age appropriate way. That it's ok to be yourself and you don't have to conform to the stereotypes. If you wait till later the damage is done.

Isn't that what we all want? To be able to be ourselves without conforming to stereotypes? I don't see the problem with telling children this early.

I also think people undersell children. They see children with same-sex parents. They experience the world and see TV. You can't hide these concepts from them, so it's better to introduce them in a neutral way before they get bombarded by stuff aimed at adults.

Dust wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:01 am ... Getting rid of old practices when we don't understand the "why" of them can be unexpectedly perilous.

Retaining them when we don't understand why can be equally perilous; the prejudice encountered by men wearing skirts is the most obvious example of this.

Most gender-dysphoric kids grow out of it if left to develop naturally.

Gender dysphoria is not just a passing fad, it is is a deep-seated natural condition which people don't grow out of.  If someone appears to 'grow out of' gender dysphoria, they probably didn't have it to start with.