Skirts at work

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Skirt Chaser
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Re: Skirts at work

Post by Skirt Chaser »

rudy wrote:Skorts and Skirts (King Soopers Only) – Female clerks may wear skorts or skirts that fit the following guidelines: no cuff, non-form fitting, no back pockets, and are no shorter than 3 inches above the knee.
I have never heard of skorts being appropritate work atire. :?

Rudy, the Gender Public Advocacy Coalition http://www.gpac.org/workplace/ might be your best source of info for bringing about change in the workplace. Permitting only women to wear certain items to work is gender stereotyping and that hurst everybody.

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Post by DavidsSkirts »

In some countries (like Australia and Canada..) the wording of some of those dress codes could sometimes be challenged under anti-discrimination laws, as well...

8)
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Post by Pythos »

I would think the "no back pockets" for female attire is quite a bell ringer. Why no back pockets? eh?, so one can see the lucious curves of the female staff's bums?
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Re: Skirts at work

Post by jamie001 »

I downloaded the Guigelines for Transitioning and Gender Non-conforming Employees at:

http://www.gpac.org/workplace/resources.html

and was very surprised to find the following statement regarding dress code:

Gender Neutral: Dress codes should be appropriate, consistently applied and gender-neutral; for instance, a woman who is more comfortable in a sport coat and slacks will be considered appropriately dressed as long as she meets one of the dress codes. Industry-appropriate rather than gender-specific guidelines should be articulated.
Make-up: It is inappropriate to require make-up, high heels, or particular hair length or styles of employees who are meeting the feminine dress code; all that is required is industry-appropriate dress and a neat, clean appearance.

This stuff seems to be biased toward Genetic Females that are wearing male clothing! What about genetic males that want to wear skirts to work? Why isn't this addressed here? I am very concerned about these recommendations as possibly being incorrectly interpreted by employers as perpetuating the existing double-standard.

Jamie



Skirt Chaser wrote:
rudy wrote:Skorts and Skirts (King Soopers Only) – Female clerks may wear skorts or skirts that fit the following guidelines: no cuff, non-form fitting, no back pockets, and are no shorter than 3 inches above the knee.
I have never heard of skorts being appropritate work atire. :?

Rudy, the Gender Public Advocacy Coalition http://www.gpac.org/workplace/ might be your best source of info for bringing about change in the workplace. Permitting only women to wear certain items to work is gender stereotyping and that hurst everybody.

Quiet Mouse
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Re: Skirts at work

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Gender Neutral: Dress codes should be appropriate, consistently applied and gender-neutral; for instance, a woman who is more comfortable in a sport coat and slacks will be considered appropriately dressed as long as she meets one of the dress codes. Industry-appropriate rather than gender-specific guidelines should be articulated.
Make-up: It is inappropriate to require make-up, high heels, or particular hair length or styles of employees who are meeting the feminine dress code; all that is required is industry-appropriate dress and a neat, clean appearance.
This stuff seems to be biased toward Genetic Females that are wearing male clothing!
How perceptive. That's because it is. This reflects the tail end of women achieving costume parity with men -- nothing more, nothing less. And it's a bit overdue. You see, it's never been about "equality"; it's about perceptions of power and a desire to emulate those in power. If it was about equality, rules like this wouldn't need to exist.

When was the last time you saw an "alpha dog" in a company or governmental organisation wear anything other than a "power suit" (and we'll leave J. Edgar Hoover out of this)? It doesn't happen. The net effect is that the "beta dogs" (right on down to the omegas) try to emulate the alphas in order to get a slice of that power -- it's perfectly understandable, if somewhat amusing to the bystander.

Note that unwritten "codes" still apply; vis Sapphire's attire when she went before that state legislative committee -- and the advice offerred hereon from a collection of fashion-forward, fashion-savvy folks.

It's all rather unfair, isn't it? We, and I refer to all guys who'd like to wear skirts, are now getting a taste of the medicine that was shoved down our female counterparts' throats for so many years. It rather sucks, doesn't it. The only difference is one of scale; women make up roughly 50% of the population: men in skirts, perhaps 0.01%.
What about genetic males that want to wear skirts to work? Why isn't this addressed here? I am very concerned about these recommendations as possibly being incorrectly interpreted by employers as perpetuating the existing double-standard.
The notion of guys wearing anything other than trousers is too new to have been captured by various codifying committees. Too, I suspect that it'll stay that way for a good many more years until seeing guys in skirts in their off-hours isn't rarer than hitting the lottery jackpot. Face it, the notion hasn't achieved "critical mass" yet -- and, it's likely years away from doing so. It's making progress, and every bloke that "shoves both legs down one pipe" helps to get closer to that critical mass, but it's still so far off in the distance that no company -- even "forward looking" ones -- is going to worry about codifying the notion into the company rules.

Finally, as a parting shot, I'd like to call this little tidbit out for those of you who missed it in the "code" above:
[...] employees who are meeting the feminine dress code[...]
Right there, the arguments about equality and gender-blindness fall on their face as the duality of the two dress codes remains enshrined. What were the folks who drafted this really thinking about? Were they thinking at all?
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Re: Skirts at work

Post by jamie001 »

It seems that the folks at gpac that drafted this weren't thinking at all! It simply reinforces existing dress code stereotypes.
crfriend wrote:

Right there, the arguments about equality and gender-blindness fall on their face as the duality of the two dress codes remains enshrined. What were the folks who drafted this really thinking about? Were they thinking at all?
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Post by Peter v »

crfriend,

Quote,
Am I willing to try that theory out on my own career with bosses who have narrow minds? No way; that's what my off-hours are for.

That is what someone high up in the judicial field just HAS TO RECTIFY for us. That should be possible, without any problems for you evolving ( can't find a better word). Bosses should be scared stiff to question the dress of a man who wants to NEATLY wear a skirt. But you should always be able to talk about such things on an even niveau. Of course it should be fitting for the position, without speaking of discrimination.

How do you override people with narrow minds, no matter what it's about?

Peter v
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Post by Peter v »

Pythos wrote:Dress codes stink.

If men are limited to pants, then so should the women be.

The idea of schools going over to uniforms is quite tragic to me. It is a way of killing off the individual before they can even shine, or experiment. The bullies that pick on a kid because of his or her inexpensive clothing are the ones that need to be dealt with. This is just another way for the schools to dodge their responsibility of teaching kids the stuff necessary for life.

This particular dress code is disturbing. The reason being, have you all not noticed people are generally spending more and more time at work, or in some way comited to work. Not only is this cutting into what few moments we have with family, but also stomps on our personal appearance. I know too many people who basically stay in items of their work clothes due to the time constraints they are under.

Looking profesional is one thing, stomping out any individuality is quite another. We are human beings, no god damned automitons, I just we would get this through our skulls before it is too late.
With regards to schools, I have been to school in Australia until 1973 and at that time, school uniform was compulsary. It worked. Many young people didn't have much to spend and by having the uniforms everybody was more or less equal. Also in that uniform you had to behave, when on route to or from school, as people could see that you were from that school, and when awol you could be asked if you had a paas to be absent. That is all from a specific background where it was based upon. It also gave you a feeling of belonging, being someone. But I agree that in principle the individuality ( as far as income can allow) is somewhat withheld. Although some individuality ( gangs etc) goes way too far!!!


For the rest I say "Here here" as the say in the UK parlement. I agree. FULLY. Safety issues come first, but there should be more thought about your life, spent at the premisses of your employer. In some aspects maybe more like a work camp, depending on the employer. This is not an easy problem to get around.

Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Post by Peter v »

crfriend wrote:
Pythos wrote:Dress codes stink.
I have no problem with that observation.
Pythos wrote:If men are limited to pants, then so should the women be.
Save for the "grandfathered" rules in the dress code mentioned above that's precisely what the code specifies -- pants for both sexes -- prefectly equal, if mind-numbingly bland.
Pythos wrote:This particular dress code is disturbing. The reason being, have you all not noticed people are generally spending more and more time at work, or in some way comited to work. Not only is this cutting into what few moments we have with family, but also stomps on our personal appearance. I know too many people who basically stay in items of their work clothes due to the time constraints they are under.
That's part of the price in "winning the race to the bottom". At no time since the Second World War has the average US citizen had less time for leisure (i.e. "off the clock") activity -- and that's just for what the statisticians count. For instance, every five weeks I have to carry a pager on my body 24x7 -- and react to it (and have that measured, observed, and judged by my superiors) -- within 15 minutes. Needless to say, that pretty much buggers everything else in my life for that week. But, I do this (read, put up with that sort of human abuse) because I need the money that the job pays.
Pythos wrote:Looking profesional is one thing, stomping out any individuality is quite another. We are human beings, no god damned automitons, I just we would get this through our skulls before it is too late.
The choice is there for the chap who made the original post: If he finds the dress code so unpalatable that he can't deal with it he can find another situation. Individuality tends to come out anyway, even if one is wearing a uniform.
I don't want to shock, and don't know what the people on the other side think about this, but

"The choice is there for the chap who made the original post: If he finds the dress code so unpalatable that he can't deal with it he can find another situation. Individuality tends to come out anyway, even if one is wearing a uniform.[/quote]"

is like saying that to a coloured person who disputes shaving to sit in the back of a bus around the 1950's.

People, also bosses, should realise that the world is constantly changing, and that nowadays some men want to wear other things than the bosses have for them in mind. And that we are not inmates and they are not bosses of chain gangs. To have buisnesses flourishing, the boss says I have an idea, and the personnel say we'll work together to achieve that and we all get a piece of the result. Which means that the welfare of every one there is not only of personal importance, but for the buisness as well. Using the talents of people for a buisness doesn't mean taking their identity from them.

Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Re: Skirts at work

Post by Peter v »

jamie001 wrote:I downloaded the Guigelines for Transitioning and Gender Non-conforming Employees at:

http://www.gpac.org/workplace/resources.html

and was very surprised to find the following statement regarding dress code:

Gender Neutral: Dress codes should be appropriate, consistently applied and gender-neutral; for instance, a woman who is more comfortable in a sport coat and slacks will be considered appropriately dressed as long as she meets one of the dress codes. Industry-appropriate rather than gender-specific guidelines should be articulated.
Make-up: It is inappropriate to require make-up, high heels, or particular hair length or styles of employees who are meeting the feminine dress code; all that is required is industry-appropriate dress and a neat, clean appearance.

This stuff seems to be biased toward Genetic Females that are wearing male clothing! What about genetic males that want to wear skirts to work? Why isn't this addressed here? I am very concerned about these recommendations as possibly being incorrectly interpreted by employers as perpetuating the existing double-standard.

Jamie



Skirt Chaser wrote:
rudy wrote:Skorts and Skirts (King Soopers Only) – Female clerks may wear skorts or skirts that fit the following guidelines: no cuff, non-form fitting, no back pockets, and are no shorter than 3 inches above the knee.
I have never heard of skorts being appropritate work atire. :?

Rudy, the Gender Public Advocacy Coalition http://www.gpac.org/workplace/ might be your best source of info for bringing about change in the workplace. Permitting only women to wear certain items to work is gender stereotyping and that hurst everybody.

Quiet Mouse

I agree with you, I looks like they are making the same fault that others have before them and which they were to ammend. :shock: :? :( :(

Peter v
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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skirts at work

Post by Peter v »

Re rudi first posting.

Skorts and Skirts (King Soopers Only) – Female clerks may wear skorts or skirts that fit the following guidelines: no cuff, non-form fitting, no back pockets, and are no shorter than 3 inches above the knee.

I read that Female clerks, may… Which is again discriminatory against men who wish to wear skirts or skorts, and should read Clerks may….

They may just be trying to fulfil legal needs and prevent legal liability.
But I still think that today gender should be left out, and regulations should be for all PEOPLE in that firm. Gender equality.

Of course it may be deliberate to rule out any male personnel from deviating from the image the people who set up the regulations had in mind. If that is the case, it then again is the question if the regulations should be updated to real life anno 2007. I imagine regulations set up half way the 20th Century were full of racial negligence, and should have all been updated to the principle of equality, no matter race, colour, sex (( or for that matter what you wear)).

Where there are safety aspects, it should be well looked into. But generally I don’t see where skirts would be more a risk than pants. I assume that aprons are worn as well in the bakery. If women were allowed to wear skirts in the bakery then you are too. I think the rules should apply to people and not to gender discrimination. It may just be an oversight from when the regulations were made up, because the thought of men wanting to wear skirts was probably as far away as mobile telephones as we know them now were in the sixties. Therefore the regulations are forfeit.

for·feit (fôrft)
n.
1. Something surrendered or subject to surrender as punishment for a crime, an offence, an error, or a breach of contract.

I mean they were set up naming specifically pieces of clothing, not saying for example, men shall not wear clothing shorter than the knee. Or better still, “clothing shorter than the knee is not to be worn.” And the firm should even be specific naming why. Such as: “for safety reasons” & “For staff function recognition purposes” But it gets very judicial. Every word written down can be questioned. And everything not written down is subject to individual opinion. Of course not written down narrowness of thought from the bosses is enough to make your life miserable.

There might also be a prejudice in the description, not intentional at the time, but now actual with men wearing other garments than only pants.

If only G. Bush wore kilts when leisuring or golfing. :shock: :shock: :? :oops: :P :P :P ( can you see Putin and George in their kilts? ) :)

PS I am genually thinking about going to my next employer If any ( I'm now unemployed) wearing a skirt. Depending on the sort of job. But bieng yourself as much as possible while doing work for another is very important.

Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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