Skirt-wearing and Feelings

[AMM]

1. I realize upon rereading my post that it might have come off as if I disapprove
of CD'ers or transsexuals, etc. I don't. They make me uncomfortable, and I
then feel uncomfortable with my inability to really see them as being a human
being like anyone else. (I suspect that they, by their existence, touch something
in me that I'd rather not look at, but then, evidently I'd rather not think about it....)
I believe that they have a right to do what they want and be what they feel they
are, I just am not good at dealing with it.

Gay men (and lesbians) I don't have a problem with. The idea of being "hit on"
by a gay man doesn't really bother me, assuming he can take "no" for an answer.
(And at this point, recently divorced from a marriage that "went south" a long time
ago and not ready to rejoin the human race, I imagine it might be nice to think that
*someone* would think I'd be worth making a pass at. :-s, even if it's from the
"wrong" gender.)

2. Lace on hems: I do recall someone in the fashion industry saying that she put
lace on the bottom of a slip to make it hang down better. This was with a fairly
light fabric.

-- AMM

[Stu]

I realize upon rereading my post that it might have come off as if I disapprove of CD'ers or transsexuals, etc. I don't. They make me uncomfortable, and I then feel uncomfortable with my inability to really see them as being a human being like anyone else...I just am not good at dealing with it.

You just need more practice. In my job, I have encountered and interacted with countless people either obviously cross-dressed or of indeterminate sex. You just look them in they eyes and talk to them like anyone else. Within a couple of minutes you forget how they are dressed - although you still make the effort to relate to them in the manner (i.e. sexual identity) that they present themselves. I once had to interview a supposed female who said s/he was called Pauline, and wore a cocktail dress and nylons. The trouble is that she was about six feet two, had broad shoulders, an Adam's apple, a five-o-clock shadow and a deep voice. I just called her "Madam" and allowed her to undergo the entire process as though I didn't have the first clue that she was anything other than what she purported to be. For all I know, she could have been born with an intersex condition that has made her produce male-levels of testosterone all her life.

Gay men (and lesbians) I don't have a problem with. The idea of being "hit on" by a gay man doesn't really bother me, assuming he can take "no" for an answer.

Same here. The only things that might grate on me is if they were excessively effeminate in their speech, dress or manner, or if they started to tell me anything about their love lives. Otherwise, gay men and lesbians are OK in my book.

Stu

[ChrisM]

You will often find that a simple hem (no lace) curls up after a bit of use/washing. Certainly this happens in gent's undershirts, and they're a fair bit heavier than the material of a nylon slip.

Indeed, I have one nightshirt to which I had to go out of my way to add an edge of lace to, specifically to prevent this curling.

I believe that lace hems on slips are thus functional firstly, and then made attractive.

C

[Since1982]

Interesting Cops show last night. 2 people sitting in a car in the back of a closed office building drew the officers attention and he rolled on over to them and approached the car. As soon as he could make out they were black he drew his gun. Seemed a bit racist to me but I guess cops have lots of mental problems from the dangerous lives they lead. Anyway, he asked for identification, was handed a drivers license from the driver and looked intently into the car at the people inside and saw that they were both beautiful young black women. Then he got his flashlight to check the drivers license as the driver said: "I just won the Miss Black Georgia contest". That's great, said the Cop, and then looked at the license. Who's Eugene? The driver said, "I am". Cop said, Eugene James (last name not heard)? The passenger said, "He sure looks like a beautiful woman doesn't he?" Cop was somewhat dumbfounded, says, No wonder he won the contest! Did the contest officials know he was a man? "Nope" says the passenger, "they didn't ask for identification as there was no cash prize involved." Cop says, I'm just going to ask you "girls" to drive on as this office building is closed and no one should be in the lot after hours. Good luck with your next contest, the cop says as he walks away in a bit of a funk.

So even a battle weary cop could end up talking to two transvestites as if they were just a couple of pretty girls he met anywhere at all. Point being, YES, they are just people, no matter how they dress or look and should be treated with the same respect as you would treat anyone else. I/you/we may not want to JOIN their lifestyle but as the world grows freer daily in some parts of it, so do people's ability to interact with anyone else. :cheer: :ninjajig:

[me012247]

Just a thought!

Do (women's) slips have a chunk of lace on the bottom to 'weight them down', or is it just for aesthetic reasons?

It just looks good...Doesn't it ?

[Charlie]

Lace is how you tell boy's clothes from girl's clothes :sarcastic: I was in Tesco a few weeks back, and noticed boys and girls vests (the British underwear). There were the same number in each pack, same size, same price. But the vests labelled as girls had lacy edging and fancy decoration. Seems to me the girls get better value for money as well

I wonder if there's a link between why boys don't do as well as girls at school, and the general drabness of boy's clothing.

Charlie

[Keith Beddoe]

Charlie,

I will be visiting your area (Cheddar) with my wife from 12th-14th May 2006. I am also a radio amateur. I don`t post very often as I have been a member of the cafe for a long time and have not much to add.
I don`t wear trousers at all, apart from work. I have two Amerikilts, two black polyester kilts and a collecton of sarongs.

Keith

Boy, I've led a sheltered life. The only CDs or TVs I've knowingly met are the electronic variety. As for gays, well I once saw a couple of guys holding hands, and found out that someone I had dealings with was gay, but that was only after he'd left the area.

I've often wondered how I'll react or feel if I ever encounter another man in a skirt. I've seen men in full Scottish regalia, but somehow that's different

Charlie

[WSmac]

AMM

First off, I've wrestled with my 'other' clothing choices all my conscious life(the period of living that I can remember... probably from about 6 or 7 years old or so).
I've finally gotten to where I put myself between the two extremes... all male/all female.
Some call me transgendered.

I went through a relatively short period of time when I felt obliged to label myself because of my thoughts and actions that I kept hidden from the world.
I started out with the label, "homosexual", even though I never felt attracted towards men and never ventured into a relationship with a man.

After discovering CD's, I changed my label to, "Crossdresser". I found a really good crossdresser's forum where I spent a year or so talking with folks. I learned quite a bit in such a short time.

Progressing (?) from there, I came across the whole gender thing and reluctantly reached out for the label, "Transsexual". Once again, I found myself in a spot where some of the ideas/feelings fit, but the overall goal did not.

Today I am an Ultra-Right-Conservative and can't imagine what's wrong with guys who want to wear skirts!

Just kidding!

I am at a point in my life where I'm discarding labels for myself. Oh, I still use the transgender one for those who NEED a label to help them start to understand how 'normal' I really am.
What I've figured out for myself though is that I see so many limitations in the labels I've bandied about so far in my life. The vast majority of these labels were taken due to societal pressures, both real and imagined, to 'present' myself as a known entity so that others would have an easier time knowing how to relate to me... good or bad.

I've also worn labels for protection. These were, Biker (during my Harley days a.k.a. the pre-Harley Yuppie Davidson era :shake: :p ), Redneck (the one time in my life I really understood how easy it was to act ignorant and mean), Soldier, Roughneck/Roustabout (out in the West Texas oilfields, which blurs over into the Redneck period, although not completely ).
These personas were meant to disguise how I really felt inside... inside as in spiritually, and inside as in " with the door barred and the shades drawn".
They offered protection from someone seeing me as something "less-than-a-man".
What this all boils down to (aside from one of my usual long-rambling posts :rolleyes: ) is that the big struggle shouldn't be what label you place upon you and what you do, but on how comfortable you are with yourself and what YOU like.

I'll be 46 in another month. My motivation for becoming comfortable with my own self and eschewing the sort of labelling I've done previously, is that I want to see what life is like being the sort of person I feel I am but have kept hidden for the first half... um... third(?) of my time here (trying to learn to be more optimistic even if it's a bit un-realistic i.e. 132 y.o. skirt-wearer :p).

Okay, sermons over, time to move on folks...

[Since1982]

Of all the labels you've stuck on yourself over the years, I do believe you might have misused one or two. As I understand it from several TV shows I've seen and people I've talked to, "Transsexual" means in the process or has already had the sex reassignment surgery or SRS and "Transgendered" means living as the opposite sex with thoughts of having the surgery later maybe but not for sure, but definitely living as the opposite sex. Not just crossdressing or practicing transvestism whether it's male to female or female to male. I'm sure there are those that probably disagree with me, but this is what I've gotten from programs on TV like "XX,YY,XY,YX,YYX,XXY" or "Transgeneration X" or the regular repeating show on one of the Discovery channels called "Transgeneration" following the lives of 2 male to female SRS and 2 female to male SRS intendees of which one has already had the surgery.

[skirttron]

I've taken to wearing my kilts a lot when not working, and I feel very comfortable in them. I think my starting to wear kilts casual-style and openly has reduced my need to adopt a more feminine style in private.
I do wear invisible makeup and I do enjoy a visit to the salon for a facial or manicure now and again.
One thing I know for sure is that I have always been disinclined towards rough sports such as football and robust, uncomfortable conditions in general. Perhaps I adopt these clothes partly as a signal to that effect, that is, "I prefer tea and cakes to kick-boxing".
On the other hand, maybe all I've just said is complete garbage.

[WSmac]

Yes Skip, I've learned how wrong my labels were.
I didn't know better!

BUT NOW I DO!

I find it amazing that humans will voluntarily constrict the borders surrounding what makes us... well... US!

For the 'average' western male to see men from other cultures wearing dresses and skirts perhaps even envying them, but quake in fear about the prospect of someone seeing us in the same garments, seems to be the ultimate in 'weirdness' to me.

Yet... I am one of those 'average' western males. At least I used to be. I can now go forth, albeit within certain limitations, and wear my skirts publicly without shame. Uneasines... yes... but at least I know I am not wrong in doing so.

This leads me to the idea of femininity.
This is a term that has such a varied usage in the public forum.
The dicitionary doesn't really help. It's a bit vague too.

So why do we fixate on this one term so much?

Quite the rhetorical question actually.

Perhaps we could stretch the meaning out in degrees...

fem - noun, adjective, adverb: slightly shifting away from the masculine.
femi - noun, adjective, adberb: the second degree of separation from the masculine i.e., a bit farther than fem.
femini - noun: a group of femi's congregating for no other purpose than their own.
feminine - adjective: the last stop on the road from masculine. The ultimate destination for some... Hades for others.

[davereporter]

I have to agree with many of the others here -

I too feel very uncomfortable being labelled as a cross dresser and feel extremely uncomfortable in too fem clothing. I stick to kilts, home made man-skirts (canvas, denim or tartan), a stretch denim skirt and a blue denim skirt.

I suppose the reason is because the energetics are wrong - a male has a particularly energy field and it does not matter what they are wearing, the field is still male. As humans we are used to recognising patterns (even subconsciously) so if the pattern doesn't fit we need to re-evaluate and sometimes our little heads explode.

It is I suppose like eating sardines and then grabbing a bit of cream cake to wipe out the tin - we know that it all gets mixed up in the stomach but since the pattern is wrong - eeeooh! It just takes some gourmet (or celb) to tell us that sardines and cream cake are good and we'll all be eating it.

Now... where did I put my pickles and chocolate sauce:sick:

[Since1982]

Your pickles and chocolate sauce is probably right next to my Grilled cheese and sardines sandwich, which, if eaten with ketchup tastes somewhat like a pizza with anchovies.

sometimes our little heads explode.

By the way, that exploding little head you were discussing, was that the one with two eyes and a nose or the other littler head about half way to the ground? LOL.:ninjajig: :shake:

[Skirt Chaser]

On the other hand, I don't go for trying to pass as
a woman. To be honest, when I visit crossdressing
forums (fora?), the "girlish" look and mannerisms kind
of repel me, as does the focus on makeup, high heels,
and sheer lingerie that seems to be such a part
of the CD scene. And, despite my PC principles,
I have to admit that when I meet crossdressers (and
transsexuals) in Real Life, it makes me very
uncomfortable.

It seems to me that I'm being at least inconsistent:
why is my degree of "looking like a girl" OK, but
theirs is not? (Or: not threatening vs. threatening.)
And am I just kidding myself when I assert that I don't
have gender issues?

I have been thinking about your post for some time AMM because it makes me examine my own beliefs. We each draw our own comfort lines without regard to what our rational minds think we should feel so be easy on yourself. How you treat others is much more important than the way you react internally.

To me a crossdresser is just a guy with more interesting taste in clothes. There is also the confidence component that comes from knowing there are many ways to look good. Particularly with drag queens there is the fun recognition that anybody can be glamed up and that style is costuming even when on women. Meanwhile, as a jeans, sneakers, and no-makeup kind of woman I can only laugh at the men who feel they are female for wanting to dress in a stereotypically "femenine" way.

An online friend of mine thinks he is really a woman and wants to wear Southern belle type outfits. While I don't think he is a woman in a man's body any more than he could have been really a cat born human I do give him the respect of calling him one of my girlfriends. To me forms of address are just as much clothing as anything else so people are entitled to wear what they want. Still, I want to be fair to him and think of him as a woman but it is not going to happen. Luckily we can argue good naturedly about it and he knows when he sends me pictures I am going to appreciate him as a woman seeing a man.

Quiet Mouse

[Richard II]

I may be committing a Sin against Masculinity
by using the "F" word (as in "Real Men(tm) don't
have Feelings"), but I'd like to bring up the topic
of what we (ok, what *I*) feel when wearing a skirt
and the associated gear.

I find that the kind of skirts &c that I want to wear
tend to be what some folks might call "feminine":
some have lace, or are a little frilly, they're all
pretty full, some are *very* full (just the thing
when you twirl while dancing), and are usually in bright
colors. And I'm thinking of experimenting with some
sheer layers, and with shirts that are sort of "puffy"
(I'm not ready to call them blouses, though what sailors
wear is called that.) And I might try a dress.

On the other hand, I don't go for trying to pass as
a woman. To be honest, when I visit crossdressing
forums (fora?), the "girlish" look and mannerisms kind
of repel me, as does the focus on makeup, high heels,
and sheer lingerie that seems to be such a part
of the CD scene. And, despite my PC principles,
I have to admit that when I meet crossdressers (and
transsexuals) in Real Life, it makes me very
uncomfortable.

It seems to me that I'm being at least inconsistent:
why is my degree of "looking like a girl" OK, but
theirs is not? (Or: not threatening vs. threatening.)
And am I just kidding myself when I assert that I don't
have gender issues?

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else here sometimes finds himself
feeling uncertain about his skirt-wearing. Or am I the only neurotic here?

-- AMM

AMM, you are not inconsistent. Think of masculinity and femininity not as just 2 places but as places on a line. You don't have to be at either end of the line; you can be at a point in between. A transvestite will be somewhere on the line. A transsexual will be at another point. You will be at another point. I will be at yet another point. We all have a right to be at whichever point on the line we feel most comfortable at.

In a way, I have had similar experiences to yours. I have been on the TV scene, though I was never any good with make-up or wigs. Only reluctantly did I wear padded bras; they didn't "turn me on" at all. Eventually I left the TV Scene as I was getting nothing from it, but it took me years to find what I am comfortable with. I am still working at discovering that.