skirtcafe.org

Is it necessary to learn compositional theory to enjoy music? No.
Is it necessary to learn semiconductor physics and electrical engineering if one it to pursue computing? No.
Is it necessary to learn chemical and mechanical engineering and metallurgy to become a marksman? No.

Do those sorts of deep dives make the experience a bit richer? Yes, definitely, and I'm glad to have done them. However, I enjoyed music long before I studied it hard; I enjoyed computing and was well into a career in it before learning the deep whys; and I could shoot very well before I understood all the mechanics and theory behind it. I'm glad I learnt those things because it enriched my life and the experiences I have. But, is is necessary? I posit "No". It is perfectly possible to appreciate things and enjoy them without necessarily understanding the minute details -- and, sometimes, "looking under the bonnet" exposes things that may disappoint.

Agreed Carl.
In response to RBH and strictly in line with the title of the thread: Men who are interested in normalising skirts in menswear need to learn to sew.

RBH, I afraid it's you who is missing something essential in the title of your thread: Men do not need to learn to sew to normalise skirts in menswear. You can't ask people to stick to the title of a thread that is not true.

Skirts fit men just fine. They come in all shapes and sizes, you will find one that fits you. They are designed for women's shapes ie the waistband sits around the navel. Men waists are lower, so wear the garment lower. easy. Personally I don't want high waisted clothes, I'm not Simon Cowell.
Men are not avoiding skirts because they don't fit, they are avoiding them because the perceive there will be a high personal price to pay if they do or their self perception will be undermined.

Everybody should learn to sew. It's a good skill to have.

The point that I was making was not that there are not existing skirts on the market that can't work. Rather, there is a substantial possibility space for garment designs that nobody is exploring at the current time. Learning how to sew gives you the freedom to experiment without being constrained to existing garment designs. There's tons of stuff in men's fashion history that would fall under the category of 'skirt', that nobody today is manufacturing.

I think skirts will be accepted into menswear once people can see how to style them in ways that look good, and what is intuitive to do with them from the basis of existing menswear, or imitation of women's styles directly, often doesn't look great due to differences of body proportions.

robehickman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 1:09 pm The point that I was making was not that there are not existing skirts on the market that can't work. Rather, there is a substantial possibility space for garment designs that nobody is exploring at the current time. Learning how to sew gives you the freedom to experiment without being constrained to existing garment designs. There's tons of stuff in men's fashion history that would fall under the category of 'skirt', that nobody today is manufacturing.

I agree with the sentiment - but sewing is practiced by so few men to begin with I think it would take a transitional figure to pop onto the scene, design a self-drafted skirt (or series of skirts) that then takes the world by storm. MIS just doesn't have the numbers. Sewing also takes years and skill to build - and not everyone wants to take that on. Add to it supplies to improve your technique (ie, male dress form, serger) and you have an entire hobby unto itself that needs its own space.

robehickman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 1:09 pm I think skirts will be accepted into menswear once people can see how to style them in ways that look good, and what is intuitive to do with them from the basis of existing menswear, or imitation of women's styles directly, often doesn't look great due to differences of body proportions.

The problem here is that we often mock fashion designers for their attempts at men's skirts. I think this mockery is well-justified because the designer doesn't - or rather rarely - takes those things into account. However... I think the rules of proportions are just too much to think about for the average male (heck, even I get tired of assessing proportions). It's one thing if you go to a tailor for a custom-fitted suit. It's another if you buy off the shelf components and have to fit them together. It's the latter experience that I think is a bigger cultural/mental shift than a man putting a skirt on.

And for my last point - it's that shifting of perspective that has been the biggest "punch to the gut" when it comes to my skirted outfits. When I first started it was very simple - knee-length skirt + graphic t-shirt + tennis shoes/sneakers. But as I obtained a variety of skirts - both in length and style - that simple formula fell apart - if it ever held up on its own - and I've become more aware of proportions. But that means I'm locked into limiting my choices of top+skirt+boots+accessories - if I want to pursue the "perfect combination".

Coder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 1:52 pmAnd for my last point - it's that shifting of perspective that has been the biggest "punch to the gut" when it comes to my skirted outfits. When I first started it was very simple - knee-length skirt + graphic t-shirt + tennis shoes/sneakers. But as I obtained a variety of skirts - both in length and style - that simple formula fell apart - if it ever held up on its own - and I've become more aware of proportions. But that means I'm locked into limiting my choices of top+skirt+boots+accessories - if I want to pursue the "perfect combination".

Indeed -- and it's worth recalling the old crack about parachutes and minds. It's possible to get too mired in the minutiae if one gets careless and begins to over-think things. It's important to know "when to let go" and trust one's gut instinct -- and much of the time that can be summed up as, "Does this actually look good as well as being practical (or insert whatever notion you're going for -- and whimsy is just as important as cognitive thought a lot of times)?".

It's also important to recall that none of us are an island, and societal pushback is a very, very real thing in some parts of the world. Where I used to never get any hassle, I now find that I sometimes do -- and it's rather unpleasant. It's down to the hardening of attitudes as what used to be my country slides into its new dictator-driven mentality, makes me quite uncomfortable, and so even I am adopting the "protective colouration" of male drab. I'll be dead long before things get any better.

Coder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 1:52 pm But that means I'm locked into limiting my choices of top+skirt+boots+accessories - if I want to pursue the "perfect combination".

There is no "perfect" in fashion Coder.
The whole concept is completely subjective, beauty in the eye of the beholder etc etc.
Were it not so we would not be having this discussion, there would only be clothes, no men's or womenswear, just bits of cloth to keep us warm and perhaps preserve our modesty.
On that basis, ditch the angst and please yourself.
Steve.
PS still waiting for the reason that I must learn to sew to prove that I am deadly serious about men being free to wear whatever, whenever and wherever they wish.

Coder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 1:52 pm

robehickman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 1:09 pm The point that I was making was not that there are not existing skirts on the market that can't work. Rather, there is a substantial possibility space for garment designs that nobody is exploring at the current time. Learning how to sew gives you the freedom to experiment without being constrained to existing garment designs. There's tons of stuff in men's fashion history that would fall under the category of 'skirt', that nobody today is manufacturing.

I agree with the sentiment - but sewing is practiced by so few men to begin with I think it would take a transitional figure to pop onto the scene, design a self-drafted skirt (or series of skirts) that then takes the world by storm. MIS just doesn't have the numbers. Sewing also takes years and skill to build - and not everyone wants to take that on. Add to it supplies to improve your technique (ie, male dress form, serger) and you have an entire hobby unto itself that needs its own space.

It does not require everyone to learn to sew - it requires a small number of people to learn how to sew in order to start intentionally exploring the possibility space.

Sewing and pattern drafting is actually a lot simpler than you're assuming, I have neither a dress form or a serger and have been making a lot of my clothing for over a year. The first thing I made (a circle skirt) took a few days and was made following guidance on youtube.

Drafting skirt patterns is not difficult:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p5eR-xqa6Q

This shows how to create a bodice / torso pattern by draping fabric on your own body. While demonstrated by a woman, the idea would work for men also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu3dMzaGnvA

The hardest aspect of sewing is honestly fabric types as there are a crazy number of them available, and it mostly isn't possible to get experience with them in person any-more because most in-person fabric stores have closed down.

A sewing machine is just a power tool, they aren't hard to use.

Coder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 1:52 pm

robehickman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 1:09 pm I think skirts will be accepted into menswear once people can see how to style them in ways that look good, and what is intuitive to do with them from the basis of existing menswear, or imitation of women's styles directly, often doesn't look great due to differences of body proportions.

The problem here is that we often mock fashion designers for their attempts at men's skirts. I think this mockery is well-justified because the designer doesn't - or rather rarely - takes those things into account. However... I think the rules of proportions are just too much to think about for the average male (heck, even I get tired of assessing proportions). It's one thing if you go to a tailor for a custom-fitted suit. It's another if you buy off the shelf components and have to fit them together. It's the latter experience that I think is a bigger cultural/mental shift than a man putting a skirt on.

And for my last point - it's that shifting of perspective that has been the biggest "punch to the gut" when it comes to my skirted outfits. When I first started it was very simple - knee-length skirt + graphic t-shirt + tennis shoes/sneakers. But as I obtained a variety of skirts - both in length and style - that simple formula fell apart - if it ever held up on its own - and I've become more aware of proportions. But that means I'm locked into limiting my choices of top+skirt+boots+accessories - if I want to pursue the "perfect combination".

Garments sold as 'menswear' are designed to fit together systemically in a way that looks reasonably proportionate on most people. If one mixes this with skirts, the result will almost always look odd because (among other factors) skirts are typically worn at the natural waist, while men's stuff typically has a lower waist. The result by default looks disproportionate. This seems to have lead to people assuming that skirts inherently don't work on men, despite the fact that skirted garments were everywhere in western men's fashion from the 17th century and prior.

As you noted, incorporating skirts requires learning enough about fashion (styling) to put together garments with different proportions to make something that looks sane. Women get taught how to do this, and men currently don't.

It is also difficult for men to learn this at this time, because most information about styling targets women, who have very different body proportions, and who's styling advice largely doesn't work for men. Women's fashion is often based on exaggerating the width of the hips, doing this on a male almost always looks bad.

I shared some things that do work in this article:

https://robehickman.com/skirt-silhouettes-men

robehickman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 1:18 am A sewing machine is just a power tool, they aren't hard to use.
I shared some things that do work in this article:

With all respect RH, none of this explains your use of the word "need" in the title.
The simple fact is that many designers in a variety of fields have little or no interest in the technical execution of their creativity.
How many architects could or would wish to physically build a house for instance.
What's more, this discussion has led precisely nowhere in "normalising" skirts for men in any way, whatsoever.
Please note I am not criticising you, but I will challenge the words as I see fit.
Steve.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 6:30 am

robehickman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 1:18 am A sewing machine is just a power tool, they aren't hard to use.
I shared some things that do work in this article:

With all respect RH, none of this explains your use of the word "need" in the title.
The simple fact is that many designers in a variety of fields have little or no interest in the technical execution of their creativity.
How many architects could or would wish to physically build a house for instance.
What's more, this discussion has led precisely nowhere in "normalising" skirts for men in any way, whatsoever.
Please note I am not criticising you, but I will challenge the words as I see fit.
Steve.

As I have already asked politely once, please cease responding to this thread as you are disrupting a productive conversation with other members. I have reported your post.

robehickman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 10:28 am As I have already asked politely once, please cease responding to this thread as you are disrupting a productive conversation with other members. I have reported your post.

I asked a perfectly civilised question which you have deigned not to answer.
However, carry on please and I look forward to reading a positive outcome for men in skirts from this "productive conversation"
Please remember this is an open forum, threads are topics for discussion and they are not simply the exclusive domain of the originator.
Steve.

Maybe we could get the thread back to real skirts that cafe members wear. I and a few other cafe members have become quite attached to the standard Roman denim skirt, which is inexpensive, available in a few colours and hard wearing. I have 2 which I use for work.
May be Robert could take a look at some of the pictures of members wearing the same skirt and give us pointers to improve or change.
I always wear mine with a company T-shirt or fleece on top and tights below with a range of boots and shoes.
There are many pictures of me in my Roman denim in my pictures pages.

robehickman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 10:28 amAs I have already asked politely once, please cease responding to this thread as you are disrupting a productive conversation with other members. I have reported your post.

Members silencing each other over differences of opinion is not the way to move forward. That's not a discussion, that's a tactic of the Far Right and of children. Learn how to "agree to disagree". We like to think of ourselves as civilised adults here.

I happen to agree with Stevie, have stated as much, and supplied my reasoning -- it's different from his reasoning. Learning to sew certainly is a nice-to-have tool in one's arsenal, but it's in no way necessary to get skirted rigs acceptable on men; a good sense of aesthetics is just as important.

crfriend wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 12:43 pm
Members silencing each other over differences of opinion is not the way to move forward. That's not a discussion, that's a tactic of the Far Right and of children. Learn how to "agree to disagree". We like to think of ourselves as civilised adults here.

I happen to agree with Stevie, have stated as much, and supplied my reasoning -- it's different from his reasoning. Learning to sew certainly is a nice-to-have tool in one's arsenal, but it's in no way necessary to get skirted rigs acceptable on men; a good sense of aesthetics is just as important.

It's all very civilised, I think. Over on the other channel they are out to destroy each other. Skirtcafe remains the place to be

Robbie, I've had a look at you web page and now have a better understanding of your motives for what you are saying. A bit of sewing has become essential for me but for those who would prefer not to there's is always another way.