Gender Identity

[Elisabetta]

[...]But [Carl], and people like him must also understand that I'm looking at the situation from a different perspective, from a "nonbinary" perspective, and for people like myself it is less about bringing objects like skirts into the realm of masculinity, but instead watering down the masculine/feminine connotations altogether. To people like myself, it increasingly just doesn't matter.

Let's be careful lest we fall into the very PC modern world. In this regard, it's worth recalling that "masculinity" and "femininity" have always shared space in the same spectrum and are an aggregation of traits and has never been a "binary" We do not need "new-think" here to describe something that has been understood for thousands of years, but has only recently been changed without warning or notice from under us. We are one species -- else breeding would be impossible, and thus we share one space -- just in varying degrees. The "binary" is a falsehood, and the sooner we embrace that the better for all involved. We do not need additional terms to describe that (although I kind of like "enby"),

I think we're on the same page, or at the very least on the same chapter. It seems that where things usually fall apart in the debate is the notion of male=man female=woman... or in the case of the transgender group... male=either/or female=either/or. On this, I can see both sides of the argument.

Personally, I think gender is more a matter of philosophy rather than true/false *ahem...binary* kind of "facts". Philosophy can always be debated and interpreted many different ways by different people and cultural groups. Indeed, masculine and feminine are two distinct gender characteristics, however there is indeed overlap that changes and evolves with societal customs. There is a substantial gradient in the overlap.

In the past, there were many words to describe people who were in the middle of the "gradient", so this isn't really a "new" concept, "androgynous" comes to mind, but there have always been people who dabbled and others that completely immersed themselves in various gender roles over the centuries.

Yes... "enby" is pretty cool.

we do not necessarily need the trans-* "spectrum" either because we're all on that same spectrum -- all together as one species.

I shared a similar notion recently whereas I proposed that at some point in the future, the notions of "transgender" would become obsolete as gender roles continue to crumble with each passing generation. Soon, it won't really matter either way.

...it did not go over well in the trans* group. Turns out, that identity is pretty important to them. But to be fair, for most cis-people, their identity is important to them as well. People like their labels. Even "enby" is a label. I guess it helps to have some definition in our mind as to what exactly we are. It may not matter much to the universe, but it helps us sleep at night I suppose. Perhaps it's just part of being human... something that links us to our tribal nature.

Do you ever perhaps wonder that maybe you're two genders trapped in one? Maybe during the birth you were meant to be a particular gender but maybe the gene's didn't connect you to one solid one so maybe you're both but we're giving the body of a male.

There's no way of knowing. Like everyone else, we can only know what is in our heart.

《---------- That my love is who you are yourself. Gender doesn't matter it's who you want to be that matters. Gender Identity is like choosing a new outfit you keep trying on clothes until you reach one that's a perfect fit. To me you're you as I'm I.

[Ozdelights]

《---------- That my love is who you are yourself. Gender doesn't matter it's who you want to be that matters. Gender Identity is like choosing a new outfit you keep trying on clothes until you reach one that's a perfect fit. To me you're you as I'm I.

Andrea you seem to have such a wonderful partner.

I have read your essay and really appreciate it. I want to re-read and take it in. I am very thankful for your thought provoking essay and believe you fit in here.

Barry

[trainspotter48]

At birth we are defined as male or female, depending on the external appearance of genitalia. However, I suspect we have all come across the 'delicate boy' who could easily emulate a female by adopting androgenous clothing. Equally, I have come across ladies who exhibit the broad upper body normally associated with male physique and who may not have any problem attempting traditional male jobs.
This is not to say that either example is 'wrong', but indicates that gender can be on a sliding scale, and should probably be regarded as such.

[rode_kater]

The way I internally resolve the issues I see around male/masculine or female/feminine is by drawing another axis. So there's one axis male/androgynous/female and the other is "how strongly do you feel that?". I'd class myself as male, but I don't feel very strongly about it. If I'd been born female I'd be ok with that too (I think).

The people you see coming out as trans and actually doing operations are the people who feel they are in the wrong body and feel very strongly about it. In contrast there are probably many more people who feel they're not in the right body and but don't feel strongly enough about it to take radical action. For many of them perhaps dressing a bit differently is enough.

And if you don't feel strongly about it, then the definitions of masculine/feminine don't matter either.

The thing is, every society in history has had at least two genders so the idea that the concept will ever vanish completely is (I think) very unlikely. There's always a group that feels strongly about it to preserve the distinction. Will it become less important? I certainly hope so.

[pelmut]

...it did not go over well in the trans* group. Turns out, that identity is pretty important to them.

If there were no classification we could be ourselves without caring about identity,   ...but Society has decided to classify everyone and has tried to force us into the wrong category, so now we do care.

[Elisabetta]

《---------- That my love is who you are yourself. Gender doesn't matter it's who you want to be that matters. Gender Identity is like choosing a new outfit you keep trying on clothes until you reach one that's a perfect fit. To me you're you as I'm I.

Andrea you seem to have such a wonderful partner.

I have read your essay and really appreciate it. I want to re-read and take it in. I am very thankful for your thought provoking essay and believe you fit in here.

Barry

Thank you Barry that means a lot.

[Freedomforall]

Andrea I am so grateful you shared this. I have been really conflicted a long time about gender that society deems to be correct and the various questions that you raise. I do recall as a child sitting in church. I was probably around 12 years old. I wondered if God made us in his image then where how could God only be one? Where did the female image come from?
You did such a fantastic job of illuminating thoughts that I felt, but could never describe in this way. I this essay is a good start to possibly create a course to teach on something like Udemy. I mean this with all sincerity. I have been so conflicted in my feelings about what we were taught and how I feel inside. This was a thought provoking breath of fresh air. Thank you for sharing. Other people need to hear this.

[moonshadow]

Thanks for the support FFA.

I'd added a little extra to the bottom, I didn't really tie the essay off correctly. I seemed to spend a long time writing about this and that, but never really concluding on the matter with regards to my own situation.

But in fairness, I suppose that's the way it is in real life.. I mean, how does one conclude a life that's still ongoing? How does one properly end a writing or discussion when life continues? The answer is clear... you don't. The following was added as a result:

So finally, where does this leave me? With all of the discussion and opinions regarding gender and how it relates to sex and anatomy, the best answer I can give is quite simply, "I am what I am. For me, gender is a matter of the spirit, and it's a subject I'm sure I will continue to explore for the rest of my life. It's difficult to conclude the matter in one simple essay written to a website or a conversation, because my life isn't complete yet, each day I learn and consider new possibilities and ideas, each day my concepts of gender and how it ties into my life continue to evolve. In short, the story isn't complete, and the ink is still wet.

I don't expect the world to understand or even embrace me and what I do, all I ask from anyone is that at the very least, they leave me alone to explore my heart and soul freely and in return I will try my best to stay out of everyone's way in the process. I'm not trying to change the world, I'm not trying to indoctrinate my beliefs onto anyone, or any children, I'm not out here trying to cause a problem. I'm simply a male, a human being that's trying to survive and understand the nature of his own heart and consciousness.

It seems that in life, the story never ends, each day ends on a cliffhanger and each new day... a sequel.

Live long and prosper.

[ScotL]

I’d say I’m looking forward to hearing the conclusion of your story but that would mean you’re dead so I’ll instead say, I’m looking forward to you forging your sequel.

To paraphrase Dumbledore ‘The happiest man on earth would look into the mirror and love what he sees, exactly as he is.’

[moonshadow]

I’d say I’m looking forward to hearing the conclusion of your story but that would mean you’re dead so I’ll instead say, I’m looking forward to you forging your sequel.

To paraphrase Dumbledore ‘The happiest man on earth would look into the mirror and love what he sees, exactly as he is.’

I have been keeping a diary of my day to day happenings. It's written in html format and designed to integrate with the site.

It's not uploaded, nor will I upload it while I'm alive and healthy. For now it's strictly private. I will only upload it on my death bed, or after retirement, whichever comes first.

At some point I'm going to have to come up with some way to keep the site going long after I'm gone.... I've thought about opening up a separate bank account, putting a few grand in it, tying the site to draw its annual renewal automatically, and just let it ride.

It sounds silly, but people pay more for a headstone. I myself don't plan to be buried, but rather cremated, thus I won't have headstone.

What better way to let my story survive long after I'm gone?

Eventually the funding will run out, but by then hopefully sites like the web archive would have spidered the whole thing.

[moonshadow]

In a world and culture that seems hell bent on silencing people... I believe the pen is mightier than the sword.

Do you know why we are really free to wear skirts? Because of an expanse of ideas. It is called progress and it only happens when ideas flow freely. In this regard the internet has been instrumental.

This is why authoritarian dictators so often attack freedom of speech first, and as is evident in stories like Orwell's 1984, the best way to control a populace is to control what it says and writes, when we can no longer speak and write our stories freely, then so goes the freedom of the mind.

It is imperative that we tell our stories, it is the most vital ingredient for a free society.

Down with book burners!

[Barleymower]

In a world and culture that seems hell bent on silencing people... I believe the pen is mightier than the sword.

Do you know why we are really free to wear skirts? Because of an expanse of ideas. It is called progress and it only happens when ideas flow freely. In this regard the internet has been instrumental.

This is why authoritarian dictators so often attack freedom of speech first, and as is evident in stories like Orwell's 1984, the best way to control a populace is to control what it says and writes, when we can no longer speak and write our stories freely, then so goes the freedom of the mind.

It is imperative that we tell our stories, it is the most vital ingredient for a free society.

Down with book burners!

Is it better for us to be heckled in the street and have the debate in open ground? Or is it better to be ignored and do as we like?
I want people to question me so I can tell my story. I don't want to negotiate bigoted man or women who will never change.

[Midas]

The rigidity of dress code comes from Victorian society and has been receding since the 1960s; that we exist is evidence of that relaxation, although we are ahead of the curve.

The gender thing gets in the way. My wife is supportive but still worries that my wearing of dresses and skirts is a symptom of an incipient gender issue and I will progress to wearing wigs and make up. I know I will never do this but because of all the trans publicity she is reluctant to accept it. Only time will prove the point and establish me as a masculine man who prefers to dress like a woman, without ever wanting to be one.

[Myopic Bookworm]

My wife is supportive but still worries that my wearing of dresses and skirts is a symptom of an incipient gender issue and I will progress to wearing wigs and make up. I know I will never do this but because of all the trans publicity she is reluctant to accept it. Only time will prove the point and establish me as a masculine man who prefers to dress like a woman, without ever wanting to be one.

I sympathize: I feel the same issue lurking in the background.

[phathack]

Only time will prove the point and establish me as a masculine man who prefers to dress like a woman, without ever wanting to be one.

My wish is that we eliminate gender in clothing.
A person can have a signature dress style and it has nothing to do with what gender the clothing is marketed towards or the gender of the person wearing them. I'm wearing a 3XL and it's the same size in the men's and women's departments.