skirtcafe.org

STEVIE wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:15 am There is nothing wrong in choosing to compromise at certain points for any number of reasons.

I am reminded of the story (some years ago) of the British schoolgirl who changed every day on the bus, so that she could leave the house in traditional Pakistani shalwar-kameez (trouser-suit) to please her parents, and arrive at school in a skirt to please her teachers. Compromise in dress is just one of those things we have to deal with. I am constantly making calculations about what to wear and where to go: it can get quite mentally draining. (I wanted to wear a dress today, so I am not buying vegetables at the market stall in the shabby part of town, but going to the up-market supermarket instead. I was in a skirt the other day when I had to go out and chat to a mother giving one of the kids a lift: she hasn't communicated since, so I am naturally making paranoid assumptions about her reaction.)

Coder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:44 am Oh, I agree 100% with you - and I'm really trying my best to be myself, I just can't around family.

I’m with you on this. Family is so important in our lives and it seems you otherwise have a pretty great relationship with your sister that you’re concerned would be jeopardized.

People are correct that she doesn’t have the right to judge you negatively but I feel that’s not really comforting. And doesn’t actually help you. Whether she has the right or not is irrelevant if she’s gonna judge you regardless.

I know you’d like to maintain the same relationship with her but also be yourself and wear skirts without judgment.

Family can surprise you in so many ways but you know her better than any of us. I suspect your reticence to wear in front of her stems from your belief that she will negatively judge you and you’re likely correct, that could jeopardize your relationship. We fear utter rejection because of its finality and can’t stand to lose family. They’re the tie that binds us to the memories of our younger selves.

That said family is family. you also know her well enough to be able to consider if she would ever come around. Or most importantly, would she hate the fact that her brother wears skirts but still love her brother? Only you know whether you think this is a real possibility. I think your mom knows? She’s non-plussed but passively accepting as I recall but I’m probably also misremembering.

I postulate from reading between the lines that she will not be subtle in her displeasure if she catches you in a skirt. I believe the sudden shock she would receive from seeing you in a skirt could damage your relationship. People hate to be surprised. People always think better when they’ve had time to process things and the suddenness of it would disallow this time to process what she’s seeing.

To that end, I wonder. Is it possible she will catch you in a skirt despite your best efforts? We cannot predict the future and as you become even more bolder in wearing a skirt openly, is there the possibility that people who know you at work may also see you out with your sister? I can see someone asking you innocently “where’s the skirt?” When she’s around and oops, cats out of the bag.

I don’t mean stop being you. But if there’s a real possibility that she may catch you, then you may want to gameplan.

I’m no expert or bold skirt wearer but I wore a kilt in front of my work folks and nothing bad happened. BUT they knew I wore one for a cancer awareness thing, saw pictures of me kilted on my computers screen saver and it was St Paddy’s day. I feel these things prepared them for it. And I know there were a few funny reactions when it was first mentioned and the first time a few saw the pictures. But at the party it was only kudos.

You may need to do something similar. I could foresee your sister finding out when you are not around would be best. She’ll text you or call I’m sure and she’ll likely be negative as you think. If she texts, I’d not answer until she’s been able to sleep on it. But if she calls, you’ll defend yourself (they’re comfortable) and I’d downplay how often you wear or how many you have. Suggesting to her you don’t wear often but in the vaguest of vague terms might placate her.

She’ll likely ask you to never do it again and this would be a good time to deflect that answer. If pushed, you can promise her you’ll never wear one around her.

Then basically keep downplaying if it comes up in a way that makes it silly for her to keep asking. Be somewhat honest, “yeah, I’ll wear one occasionally”. Promise never in front of her. The more you downplay it and trivialize how much it means to you, the better.

But as life goes on, she’ll see you’re still her brother. Hopefully she’ll soften. Perhaps she’ll read some of the multitude of articles you keep finding. And one day, perhaps she will even tolerate it. To a degree.

Or she’ll surprise you and mock you at first and then just won’t say anything.

But I fear you’re gonna get caught and it would be better for her to find out without the shock of actually seeing you skirted. And that always happened when it comes out and you’re not wearing one. The combination of “getting caught” and wearing one would likely turn your ability to speak moot.

Hope I haven’t scared you. You have nothing to be afraid of. I do believe despite how negative your sister sounds about it, family creates strong bonds. And she’ll miss trading duck purse pictures. Hahaha

Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, I've mulled all of that on and off. The chances of discovery are pretty remote, short of running into her at this years art fair.

Too much about me - I know I brought my challenges up, but I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

I think for me, "mainstream" will not be when you see one or two guys in skirts per day in public, it's when family won't judge you negatively. That's mainstream for me, and that day will never come.

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:52 am Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, I've mulled all of that on and off. The chances of discovery are pretty remote, short of running into her at this years art fair.

Too much about me - I know I brought my challenges up, but I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

I think for me, "mainstream" will not be when you see one or two guys in skirts per day in public, it's when family won't judge you negatively. That's mainstream for me, and that day will never come.

For your sake and for everyone on this cafe, I sure hope you’re wrong about that day never coming.

ScotL wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:18 am For your sake and for everyone on this cafe, I sure hope you’re wrong about that day never coming.

I'm referring to my situation - I just don't think my sister will ever come around, short of skirts being sold in the men's aisle at Kohls. Mainstream may mean different things to other people.

Men's skirts becoming mainstream has no direct relevance to the members of the cafe.
The cafe was founded and the members exist wearing skirts and dresses regardless.
Sure societal and family acceptance would be lovely but we do what we do anyway.
Bonus if I live long enough to see it happen but frankly my dears, I don't give a damn if I don't.

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:54 am I'm referring to my situation - I just don't think my sister will ever come around,

Coder, your sister is one of a countless number on this planet.
Unfortunately, she is the one with the most direct bearing on you and your life.
Her right to that status is between the two of you.
No one else can dictate or pontificate!
As for hijacking, if people like her didn't exist, men's skirts may never have been anything but.
Relevance?
Steve.

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:54 am

ScotL wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:18 am For your sake and for everyone on this cafe, I sure hope you’re wrong about that day never coming.

I'm referring to my situation - I just don't think my sister will ever come around, short of skirts being sold in the men's aisle at Kohls. Mainstream may mean different things to other people.

I’m still hoping you’re wrong about her. Family can sometimes surprise you the most cause you think you know them and how they’ll react to something you care about but they’ll sometimes let their love for you come first. She’ll always mock you though. That’s just what sisters do. Especially if she’s older.

Some people will never come around.... I know lots of people that still think women shouldn't wear pants!

moonshadow wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:36 am Some people will never come around.... I know lots of people that still think women shouldn't wear pants!

They can take everything from you but hope. That’s something you relinquish.

ScotL wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:11 pmThey can take everything from you but hope. That’s something you relinquish.

Hope can be taken away as well, and don't doubt that for an instant.

crfriend wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:41 pm

ScotL wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:11 pmThey can take everything from you but hope. That’s something you relinquish.

Hope can be taken away as well, and don't doubt that for an instant.

We will have to agree to disagree on that front.

ScotL wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:43 pm

FLbreezy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:57 pm https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fash ... rend-2023/

More of the same but I'll take it.

"Menswear dress codes continue to loosen up and become more personal," says Fisher. "Skirts seem to pop up every few years in different forms—like wraps or kilts—but this time they are here to stay as a legit option."

Gotta loves these lines from the article:

“ In fact, so many celebrities, influencers, and early adopters have embraced the garment that it's (slowly) becoming, well, just normal.”


It also seems to legitimize what I feel. Over the last ten to twenty years, men wearing skirts was a novelty act to garner attention that came about every two to three years with a hopeful promise that this was the latest trend only to fall flat for two to three years. Maybe I’m just naive or a newbie or optimistic but it does feel like there is a groundswell of interest for men in skirts that no longer is the novelty act garnering attention but a legitimate clothing choice for men. Men who are more secure in their masculinity but men.

Wow, there is some depth to this thread! First, the article: it may be reporting nothing new, but the more MIS appears in fashion news, the better.

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:54 am
I'm referring to my situation - I just don't think my sister will ever come around, short of skirts being sold in the men's aisle at Kohls. Mainstream may mean different things to other people.

I agree with Coder- mainstream, however, means skirts being sold in the men’s department at your local Kohls or Macy’s. More “manly” male celebrities being photographed in the course of their everyday lives while skirted would also help. I suspect that if the day ever comes in which skirts for men are sold in regular stores, it will start with unisex sections, thereby not threatening the manly men with the “Softer Side of Sears”, to borrow an old advertising slogan. The skirts will need to start on the conservative side too: no bold prints, fabrics, or colors. There’s just no way around that. Get the movement started then worry about boldness and colorful down the road. The online retailers that are selling limited skirts for men are already doing this, Adidas coming to mind.

The needle IS finally being moved, granted- a nanometer at a time.

Coder wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:39 pm If only I could figure out a way to send this to two of my family members, sigh.

Coder, perhaps composing a manifesto of sorts of why you wear skirts might be a good way to broach the topic with your sister. I’ve been pondering this idea for my own life. My SO is accepting but not thrilled by my penchant for kilts. Skirts will likely be met with more resistance and trepidation that I’m either gay, trans, or both (definitely not!). When the time comes for me to address it with her and my teenage daughters, who will also be taken aback by it, I want to have a well thought out argument to present to them, complete with references and links to articles and websites such as this one. I do not want to forget any important points if I get flustered during what will likely be a tense and nerve wracking discussion.

My sister, although good-hearted, is a conservative, religious right-winger who has completely ignored my kilt wearing, which obviously indicates she does not approve. To her credit she has not uttered any negatives to me, but I know she is likely thinking them.

Bottom line: probably no members of this group will be around to see complete acceptance of males crossing over into long-defined “feminine” realms. It’s our lives, not anyone else’s, and I know from a personal perceptive that going against the grain is difficult and sometimes painful. But to a degree Fred in Skirts’ usual ending post quote “the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter” does have merit. Having to draw that line for those close to you is when it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to maintain harmony and happiness in other areas of your life. To me, relationships- unless they are toxic- outweigh anything else. Compromising is often necessary. For me, it may ultimately be that I have approval to wear skirts at home but only kilts when out in public. Time will tell.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:24 am
I fully expect the world's society to collapse by the end of the century. Hopefully I'll be dead by then, but if not, at the very least, I'm going to get it while the gettin's good. I don't want to spend the last few remaining "free" years I have being afraid of my own shadow. You may look back at these years and regret the liberty that you had but were too afraid to exercise.

But frankly coder, even if the world doesn't come crashing down, one thing is FOR CERTAIN: Someday YOU WILL PERISH. And the the days of youth evaporate very quickly. We are all on this Earth but for a VERY short time. There is no proof of an afterlife, for all we know, this is it.

While I’m not quite that pessimistic about humankind, I certainly agree that our species has a LONG way to go. What the future holds- who knows? But as Jim Morrison once said, “I don’t know what’s gonna happen man, but I’m gonna have my kicks before the whole sh#%house goes up in flames! Alright!”

Finally, here’s another applicable Morrison quote:
“Normal is boring, regular is ordinary. Being unique and extraordinary requires so much effort but in the end, it is all worth it. You should never compromise on your individuality for the sake of acceptance and try to remain unique even if people are not supporting you”.

I bet if Jim hadn’t died or faked his death and covertly relocated to South America he might have tried a “skirt” or two.