Sexual Fetish or Gender Expression?

[Kirbstone]

I dislike the word 'Fetish'. Let's call it a hobby.

To go out anywhere I'm not into any other clothing items remotely feminine, but the feel of a skirt and the way it moves is pleasant. I also happen to like the appearance of them. At this time of year high-denier opaques keep the ol' pins warm as I don't like hemlines below the knee...preferably a bit above. I have a great liking for kilts (not too heavy!) and pleats in skirts as they help that movement enormously. I'm afraid pencils & straight-cut skirts do absolutely nothing for me. I'm not into bags at all, so either pockets where they should be in a skirt or wearing a light jacket with a 'skirt without' is the way to go for me.
I had a friend who sold gentlemen's clothing on the West coast of the US of A, based at St Raphael, just N. of SF. It was he who used the expression 'Ten inch drop', describing the difference between chest & waist measurements, in my case 44" down to 34". Quite understandably this rules out womens' dresses entirely. The only design I could even get into were halter-necks, which of course leave the shoulders uncovered. Then you run into the problem of the waist being far too high. Ladies have markedly shorter torsos. {Useful to know when you plan on packing one into a freezer or suitcase! }

Gender expression? what a load of cobblers!

Tom

[pelmut]

I dislike the word 'Fetish'. Let's call it a hobby.

I think we need to be very clear that fetish and hobby are two different things.  There are many of us for whom wearing a skirt is a hobby, something done for leisure, but it is not a fetish which is done for sexual excitement.  Perhaps you were suggesting that 'hobby' should be used as a euphemism for sexual excitement, but that is going to cause a lot of confusion and trouble and it is best avoided.

Gender expression? what a load of cobblers!

On their own, skirts don't indicate gender but they are a legitimate component of gender expression as part of a package of other factors, such as body shape, other clothing, behaviour, manner of speaking etc.  This will be true as long as skirts are associated with women in the minds of most people.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Welcome Stevej180!

I really appreciate your candor and self-awareness.

Having had the desire to wear skirts and dresses my whole conscious life, publicly crossdressed for about 20 years and now, after taking a 10-year hiatus from wearing any kind of clothing from the women's department, wear so-called womenswear full-time; even my jeans, underpants and socks come from the women's department. I've also let my hair grow out (along with longer supplements from Hair Club), but don't consider myself a crossdresser because I still identify as a male. I'm a man who is openly and proudly gender-fluid.

I believe a man's desire to wear skirts comes from his so-called feminine side begging for its literal time in the Sun, whether it's a kilt on a man without a drop of Irish or Scottish blood or a full-on crossdresser. If you take the time to read my postings and then the responses to them, you'll see that plenty of members of this forum vehemently disagree with me.

So, we definitely have all kinds here and a full range of opinions. Inasmuch as we have helped you come to a self-realization and self-acceptance, we have succeeded entirely.

I'm glad for you and proud of us. All of us. I look forward to hearing more from you.

[moonshadow]

I believe a man's desire to wear skirts comes from his so-called feminine side begging for its literal time in the Sun, whether it's a kilt on a man without a drop of Irish or Scottish blood....

Yeah... I suspect you'll find yourself alone on an island with that one....

While I generally can find myself mildly in agreement with everything else you stated... the kilt being feminine might be pushing it...

[STEVIE]

While I generally can find myself mildly in agreement with everything else you stated... the kilt being feminine might be pushing it...

Hi Moon
"Pushing it" would be the understatement of the year.
It is risky to suggest that the kilt is, in fact a skirt. Stir an adjective like feminine in and you could have the makings of WW3.

Steve.

[Coder]

To the original question - neither.

I've been mulling the idea of what it means to be "feminine" over for a few years now. I don't really like to think of things as feminine in the context of my likes and dislikes - rather there are things I like and things I dislike. Society heavily genders things - probably human nature - and I fall into that trap from time to time. I'm not talking biology but rather things that we've developed culturally. Clothes, styles, roles, and so forth. Unfortunately, I cannot completely say whether or not I like certain attire because it is feminine - but I would like to believe it has nothing to do with that society-imbued quality but rather what I personally like and wish to wear. If I had the courage to be myself all the time, I'd be a mishmash of different styles depending on my mood. But I wouldn't want those clothes to define who I am. I just want to be me.

[rivegauche]

ne who wears skirts and dresses in a variety of situations, my dividing lines are the breasts and the walk. If I am earing a bra and breast forms and attempting to walk like a woman (which I can do quite well) then I want to be perceived as a woman. If I use my normal walk and don't wear a bra I want to be perceived as a man. Even when I dress and present completely as a woman, I do not identify as a woman or feel feminine. I would not know what feeling feminine is like. I do this for fun. Endorphin rush.

[crfriend]

"Pushing it" would be the understatement of the year.
It is risky to suggest that the kilt is, in fact a skirt. Stir an adjective like feminine in and you could have the makings of WW3.

Recall that Dave has a long history of point-of-view pushing when it comes to the trans-* agenda, so take the source into account. It's not worth starting a war over.

[Faldaguy]

by crfriend » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:37 pm

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:52 am
"Pushing it" would be the understatement of the year.
It is risky to suggest that the kilt is, in fact a skirt. Stir an adjective like feminine in and you could have the makings of WW3.
Recall that Dave has a long history of point-of-view pushing when it comes to the trans-* agenda, so take the source into account. It's not worth starting a war over.

Hey Carl, Dave is certainly not the only one here known to 'push' a few things! For the most part I get a number of my smiles from some of the more obvious 'pushes' that get expounded! Who needs something as dull as a kilt all the time?!

To the literally side of the comment: I've mentioned before the nurse who when observing my skirt (granted a long almost 'utility' skirt) asked if it was a kilt, and was dumbfounded when I replied, "No, just a skirt" -- as she regained her equilibrium, she noted she had to ask that way, because when she had asked other guys about their "skirts" she met with their anger. I'm sorry, but agree -- there is nothing soft and feminine in the them kilt guys.

[STEVIE]

Recall that Dave has a long history of point-of-view pushing when it comes to the trans-* agenda, so take the source into account. It's not worth starting a war over.

Rest easy Carl, personally I don't give enough of a damn to take that kind of trouble.
Just too many real problems in the world right now.
Funny thing is that most who would have probably just a tenuous link with Scotland and modern Scots.
Steve.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Dave has a long history of point-of-view pushing when it comes to the trans-* agenda

Carl, for an intelligent, educated guy you sure seem to be challenged when it comes to reading for understanding. As I have said a number of times, I know far more transsexuals than most people and I am active in the human rights movement so I can say with authority there is no such thing as a "trans agenda" except t be treated with the same decency and respect as anyone else gets. So I have NEVER pushed the trans agenda because there isn't one to push.

I've just tried to get the denizens of this virtual space to recognize where their desire to wear skirts is coming from, that there isn't a damn thing wrong with either the desire or its source. That, in fact, our hesitation to wear so-called womenswear in public is a demonstration that we're all still culturally programmed to default to regard women as inferiors.

Which they're not. Nor are they superior. They're just, by and large, different from us and we call their differences "feminine." To the extent we possess some of those traits we have a feminine side. That doesn't compromise our masculinity; it just makes us more well-rounded human beings.

Why is that so hard to recognize and acknowledge about yourselves?

As I've asked before, are there any of you who expect me to believe that you're drawn to wearing skirts, including the ones you refer to as kilts, because you're too macho to restrict yourselves to pants?

take the source into account

Good advice.

I'll have to remember that the next time you go off about the machinations of "The Oligarchy."

[pelmut]

...I have said a number of times, I know far more transsexuals than most people and I am active in the human rights movement so I can say with authority there is no such thing as a "trans agenda" except t be treated with the same decency and respect as anyone else gets.

As a transwoman who knows many other transwomen in person and online, I can confirm that.  We are a diverse bunch with very few things in common except a dislike of being treated badly because of what we are and of being accused of having an agenda which we don't have.

The concept of a "trans agenda" has come from the propaganda of the hate brigade, who are constantly twisting the truth about us and claim that because our individual prostests have a similar theme, it proves we are part of a conspiracy.

[crfriend]

There's no "conspiracy" involved in this, it's simply the fact that deliberately and repeatedly misclassifying people gets real old real fast.

We would do best to let the classification matter drop and accept individuals for whom they are, but that requires effort and sometimes works counter to human nature.

[Rokje]

Gender philosophy is a subject I've struggled with for many years, and one we've had many a lively debate on here at this site.

The membership here boast everyone from full on transgender women to the straight up masculine kilt wearers, and everyone in between.

We each have to decide how to live our lives, and we each decide how we will reconcile our own identity with ourselves and the outside world. This is a personal matter and one that nobody else can work out for you.

I can only speak for myself... I often wish I were born a female. I think my brain works in a very feminine manner, and if my creator had have gifted me with the correct biology, I feel I'd be a lot less bitter today.

I greatly admire transwomen for their courage to be themselves in a world that pretty much hates them. But nevertheless, I have decided to simply play the hand I was dealt. In doing so I learned over the years that I can partake in pretty much most matters of womanhood I choose and still just be a "guy". There is no law or reason why a man can't carry feminine attributes, or enjoy feminine styles.

I struck a balance between my mind, my soul, and my biology, I can live my life freely, and not forsake any part of what I am simply by being honest with myself.... I am a human male, very much in tune with his feminine side.

No bigot can challenge or take that away from me, because it is a verifiable fact.

So the big question remains, am I transgender? Are you? Is anyone else here?

I honestly don't know. And really, I try not to worry about it, for at the end of the day, we are what we are, and I can assure you the universe couldn't care less what we call ourselves.

Remember, wherever you go, there you are.

Dear Moon, you do know that I'm a transwoman that started out wearing skirts as a man. At least I have a female passport, and have my SRS before the end of June.

I'm still encouraging men to wear whatever they want, because clothes are just clothes, to feel comfortable, not to please other people.
People talk, let them talk. When I started out to put the rainbow flag on our house, we became the talk of the town. Now they know better, and laugh at me, in a friendly manner. I can be myself, I'm a middle aged woman, living my life with my wonderful lovin' wife and our two cats in a very small village.

[Stevej180]

I really appreciate your candor and self-awareness.

I believe a man's desire to wear skirts comes from his so-called feminine side begging for its literal time in the Sun, whether it's a kilt on a man without a drop of Irish or Scottish blood or a full-on crossdresser. If you take the time to read my postings and then the responses to them, you'll see that plenty of members of this forum vehemently disagree with me.

So, we definitely have all kinds here and a full range of opinions. Inasmuch as we have helped you come to a self-realization and self-acceptance, we have succeeded entirely.

I'm glad for you and proud of us. All of us. I look forward to hearing more from you.

Thanks for the kind words, and the various responses on here! It’s been interesting to see how different folks have responded to my original post. To re-summarise my thoughts, I have concluded that my gender is part way between masculine and feminine, and that I express that by wearing a mixture of clothing that includes skirts.