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Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:00 pm
by pelmut
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:33 am
I have to disagree with both of you on a few things.
Pelmut, growing trees and then cutting them down for timber or paper captures C02 for the life of the tree plus the life of the product.
That still isn't very long in the overall scheme of things. At the very best it ties-up the CO2 for a few hundred years and then releases it again and at the worst it creates vast quantities of Methane ...and then releases the CO2.
Longer if the product isn't disposed of by fire or above ground disposal.
How else is it going to be disposed of?
Proper forest management, most importantly controlling the undergrowth and thinning will prevent forest fires.
The arisings from thinning out undergrowth can only be disposed of by burning or decomposing, with the same disadvantages as before.
That's the bad news, the good news is that parked electric cars that are connected to the grid could provide the storage needed to fill in the gaps left by wind and solar produced electricity.
...and the bad news about that is the environmental cost of making and disposing of electric car batteries and motors and the scarcity of the materials required to make them.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:09 am
by Fred in Skirts
After reading all of the above dire things to come why don't we all just roll over and die. Since no one has a good idea how we can possibly keep the world in one piece. Why don't we place H-Bombs all over the world and set them off at the same time and end it all........
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:21 am
by crfriend
Fred in Skirts wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:09 amAfter reading all of the above dire things to come why don't we all just roll over and die. Since no one has a good idea how we can possibly keep the world in one piece. Why don't we place H-Bombs all over the world and set them off at the same time and end it all........
More to the point, why don't we learn to live within the means that our home world imposes on us.
The geologic history is quite clear: the planet cycles between warm phases and cold phases. At the moment, it's climbing out of its last cold phase. Is human activity accelerating the matter? Likely. Is it the sole cause? No. However, that being said, humans are the sole species on the planet at the moment that might alter the trajectory. Should we play ostrich and stick our collective heads in the sand?
It is worth recalling that in the geologic time-frame on Earth, extinction is the rule not the exception, and Homo Sapiens are just another species that can -- and entirely likely will -- go extinct. Should we attempt to thwart, or at least delay, that? The planet will not care.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:16 am
by denimini
Fred in Skirts wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:09 am
Why don't we place H-Bombs all over the world and set them off at the same time and end it all........
I don't think that we need to do anything now to end it but we certainly need to do a few things to stop it ending. Scientists have been offering good ideas for decades but it threatens the privledges of a few in powerful positions and some prefer to just turn to the lord..
We might make way for some less "smart" species to flourish if they are lucky ........... It could end up like Venus once a self perpetuating cycle is allowed to continue......... Or recover similarly to after some giant meteor strike or catastrophic volcanic activity.
We can at least make it an important electoral issue in our respective countries and continue to wear skirts.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:24 pm
by moonshadow
Some of the wisest people I know write comments on this website.
Sadly this website consist of about 0.001% of all of the people I've heard speak or seen write.
Living in the Appalachian region I can tell you the environmental situation seems pretty hopeless.
Enjoy it now. Carl, I fear extinction is just around the corner. I just hate it for all of the beautiful species that we will take down with us.
https://youtu.be/-vUXea8MXco
That's all I'm going to say about it.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:46 pm
by crfriend
moonshadow wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:24 pmEnjoy it now. Carl, I fear extinction is just around the corner. I just hate it for all of the beautiful species that we will take down with us.
Humans will not be the first species to go extinct, nor will they be the last. We will simply be one of very many species to take that path. The sad distinction is that -- as far as we know -- we're the only one who directly contributed to its own demise either through overt will or simple lack of action.
In reading a book on paleontology a while ago (yes, I do read things other than computer literature) I came across the rather thought-provoking assertion where the author outright posited that we are living through a mass extinction at this very moment, and he made a compelling case for it. The number of species to go extinct in the past century is quite large, and it looks like the rate of species-extinction is growing.
On climate change: The planet cycles between warm and cool periods, and has since things settled down from the earliest formation. The geologic record points this up handily. At the moment, it's simply warming up from the last cool period and we're stuck in the middle of it. About twelve thousand years ago, sea levels were about 500 feet lower than where they are today by virtue of much of the planet's water being tied up in glaciers. That got me to thinking about my little local area and what it would look like. There would be no Boston Harbor [sic] because it'd be solid ground with hills and valleys in it; the waterfront would be several miles to the East; where the Andrea Doria lies on the bottom now some 300-odd feet down would be on the side of a hill about 200 feet above the shoreline. Are humans the
cause of climate change? No. Are they part of it? Yes. Should we be trying to do something about it -- if only to get another couple of hundred years? Yes. However, doing so would adversely affect "The Bottom Line" and so won't happen. We shall get what we deserve, and the corporate slime at the top will get theirs at the same time. This time the outcome cannot be bought and paid for.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:56 pm
by moonshadow
Honestly I figure if the human species is to survive into the next millennial (3000), then I think we're going to have to find a way to colonize other worlds, which will likely involve finding some way to crack the light speed barrier.
If this speed can not under any circumstances be broken or worked around (e.g. through a worm hole of sorts) then our days are likely numbered anyway regardless if the source of our energy, save for some massive push to limit the expansion of the population. We are already well past what we can support without the aid of machines and industrialized agriculture.
I'd be very surprised if humanity lingers around for another 500 years... I think the powers that be know this, and that's why I think they are essentially pushing for us to burn our candle at both ends... they know the end is nigh anyway... might as well party hard today!
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:16 am
by rode_kater
moonshadow wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:56 pm
Honestly I figure if the human species is to survive into the next millennial (3000), then I think we're going to have to find a way to colonize other worlds, which will likely involve finding some way to crack the light speed barrier.
I'm a little more optimistic than that, but then, I watch
SFIA. Building spaceships that can reach 10% of light speed is completely doable within current technology. Colony ships are just a matter of effort. Sure, it'd take a huge amount of effort and it's not risk free but it's probably doable. If we can overcome the coming energy crunch (basically by either inventing cheap fusion or by building a large amount of renewable sources before the fossil fuels run out) then we're gold.
Earth too warm? Build a solar shade. Can be done for
~$100 billion, which is less than we're spending on the current crisis, it's just very slow. And it's only getting cheaper as launch costs fall. We'll probably want to eventually anyway as the sun keeps heating up, unless of course we move the Earth's orbit outward.
By the way, you don't colonise other worlds, colonising space is much easier and there's a lot more room.
The coming 100 years are critical, but if we make than we will probably colonise the galaxy within a million years, no new physics required, just people who want to. And since the various methods of immortality haven't been ruled out I haven't yet ruled out being there
Did I mention I was an optimistic person
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:04 am
by Ray
Yes, you can slow warning, but can you stop plastics pollution, clearing and destruction of habitats, the poisoning of soil, the mass extinction of animals because there are 7.5 billion people when there should be 1.5 billion max?
I am not an optimist. I wish I were.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:42 am
by denimini
Why try and colon-ise another planet with a hostile environment with great difficulty when it still would be easier to look after the wonderful planet we have.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:43 am
by Jim
denimini wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:42 am
Why try and colon-ise another planet with a hostile environment with great difficulty when it still would be easier to look after the wonderful planet we have.
Because there is not currently enough immediate profit in looking after the wonderful planet we have.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:20 pm
by moonshadow
denimini wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:42 am
Why try and colon-ise another planet with a hostile environment with great difficulty when it still would be easier to look after the wonderful planet we have.
I agree, however even if the human race pulls a sudden about face and starts to take better care of the Earth and her inhabitants with perfection, there is still the issue of the ever expanding population. Eventually we will just reach a tipping point with what this Earth can provide.
As we get better and better at surviving natural disasters and combating pandemics, eventually natures population control will no longer be effective. On that day we will either have to look to the cosmos for further settlement, or engage in strict population control.
One matter we must be careful of if when ever make it to other planets, and that is the risk of microbial and viral life that may exist on those planets.
Indeed, contracting an alien virus may very well wipe out ALL human life, as we'd have no immunity whatsoever.
At the end of the day Nature always reigns Supreme.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:42 am
by Pdxfashionpioneer
The planet cycles between warm and cool periods, and has since things settled down from the earliest formation. The geologic record points this up handily. At the moment, it's simply warming up from the last cool period and we're stuck in the middle of it.
The episode of
Nova showed the cycle of CO2 in the atmosphere and the cycle of average annual temperatures over the last several hundred thousand years as recorded by the deepest glaciers in Greenland and other Arctic areas. The graphs were not only identical in their shapes, but consistently within a defined band, similar to the wave profiles you see on a heart monitor. Clearly there were self-correcting natural mechanisms that kept our planet habitable for a critical mass of species.
Until the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Not only has the amount of fossil fuel accelerated the rate at which the percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is increasing, and with it the average annual temperatures, but human activity over the last 50 years has pushed the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere far beyond the historical peak percentages. In other words, we have put far more CO2 into the atmosphere than the natural mechanisms can handle. Furthermore, we rely on plants for ALL of our food, including meat from such animals as pigs, chicken and cattle because they're raised on produce.
Layer on top of that what global warming will do to the availability of water and the ability of homo sapiens to survive outside of their built structures and ultimately at all is more than questionable!
We cannot rely on free market mechanisms to correct these imbalances; as the ultimate externalities these problems will ultimately require governmental action on an international scale. These efforts needed to have begun as soon as the problem was detected decades ago. The longer we delay, the more drastic the corrections will need to be and the less effective.
In short, we need leaders who
- Believe this is actually happening
Are willing to listen to scientists and act on their advice
Are able to work with our allies
Deliver bad news to the nation
Impose new restrictions on business and therefore, ultimately, everyone of us official taxpayers.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:55 am
by Shilo
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:42 am
Until the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Not only has the amount of fossil fuel accelerated the rate at which the percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is increasing, and with it the average annual temperatures, but human activity over the last 50 years has pushed the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere far beyond the historical peak percentages. In other words, we have put far more CO2 into the atmosphere than the natural mechanisms can handle. Furthermore, we rely on plants for ALL of our food, including meat from such animals as pigs, chicken and cattle because they're raised on produce.
Layer on top of that what global warming will do to the availability of water and the ability of homo sapiens to survive outside of their built structures and ultimately at all is more than questionable!
We cannot rely on free market mechanisms to correct these imbalances; as the ultimate externalities these problems will ultimately require governmental action on an international scale. These efforts needed to have begun as soon as the problem was detected decades ago. The longer we delay, the more drastic the corrections will need to be and the less effective.
In short, we need leaders who
- Believe this is actually happening
Are willing to listen to scientists and act on their advice
Are able to work with our allies
Deliver bad news to the nation
Impose new restrictions on business and therefore, ultimately, everyone of us official taxpayers.
Well said Couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately there is no sign of this happening any time soon. I think it’s going to take a massive global catastrophe to concentrate minds. Even then our current cohort of so called leaders are likely to put their efforts into trying to shift blame for their negligence onto others.
Re: Wildfires in the US
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:59 am
by pelmut
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:42 am
[...]
In short, we need leaders who
- Believe this is actually happening
Are willing to listen to scientists and act on their advice
Are able to work with our allies
Deliver bad news to the nation
Impose new restrictions on business and therefore, ultimately, everyone of us official taxpayers.
Equally important, they need to have sufficient knowledge of science and engineering to avoid going along with crackpot 'solutions' that will actually make matters worse:
Wind turbines don't pay off their construction costs. Electric cars may be good for their local environment but the environmental costs of manufacture and disposal are much worse. Hydroelectric schemes aren't too bad but they do have a significant environmental cost which is often overlooked. Hydrogen is a complete non-starter becase the process of making it wastes large amounts of electrical power, so do the charge/discharge cycles of storage batteries.
We've already discussed the huge fire risk and potential for methane production caused by planting too many trees. Carbon-capture using trees as the source material might work if the energy balance can be got right, but it could equally well finish up generating more CO2 than it captures. Nuclear power is a gamble because, although disasters are rare, they are big when they happen. Any form of large-scale power generation (as opposed to real-time energy capture) has the potential to increase to overall temperature of the planet, even if it doesn't cause any form of chemical or radiation pollution.
We have become travel-junkies; the answer lies in reducing our travel and other energy requirements and the appropriate use of a plant-based product made from latex to control the population.