Brighton College

[Gregg1100]

Very well put. It was done solely for the confused "transgenders".

Pelmut said;
Transgender children are very rarely confused, they know exactly who and what they are. It is the adults clinging to blatantly wrong traditional beliefs who become confused and angry when confronted with a child who obstinately insists on telling the truth.

Transgender or not, I would have thought that any school kids wearing skirts at that age must influence others to do so---and the more the merrier. And as Pelmut said, the transgender children know precisely what they are and want.

[dillon]

You're missing the point, which is this: What business is it of Brighton College as to why any boy wants to wear a skirt? Yet in the wording of their policy they implied it was for students with gender issues. It's not their place to prejudge why any student chooses to wear a skirt. In doing so, they unfairly labelled any male student who would like fashion freedom as having gender issues. Thoughtless on their part, IMHO.

[Judah14]

You're missing the point, which is this: What business is it of Brighton College as to why any boy wants to wear a skirt? Yet in the wording of their policy they implied it was for students with gender issues. It's not their place to prejudge why any student chooses to wear a skirt. In doing so, they unfairly labelled any male student who would like fashion freedom as having gender issues. Thoughtless on their part, IMHO.

In the first place, why should schools have uniform policies? For example, I attend a university where there is no uniform or dress code (with the exception of safety equipment for laboratory work and ROTC military uniforms) and we can wear anything we like to school. Schools are for learning first and I think uniforms are best left for work.

[moonshadow]

Transgender children are very rarely confused, they know exactly who and what they are. It is the adults clinging to blatantly wrong traditional beliefs who become confused and angry when confronted with a child who obstinately insists on telling the truth.

This has got to be the among the best lines I have ever read about this issue. Well said pelmut!

I shake your hand sir!

[Big and Bashful]

Transgender children are very rarely confused, they know exactly who and what they are. It is the adults clinging to blatantly wrong traditional beliefs who become confused and angry when confronted with a child who obstinately insists on telling the truth.

This has got to be the among the best lines I have ever read about this issue. Well said pelmut!

I shake your hand sir!

Sometimes I miss the "like" button, consider it pressed!

[pelmut]

You're missing the point, which is this: What business is it of Brighton College as to why any boy wants to wear a skirt? Yet in the wording of their policy they implied it was for students with gender issues. It's not their place to prejudge why any student chooses to wear a skirt. In doing so, they unfairly labelled any male student who would like fashion freedom as having gender issues. Thoughtless on their part, IMHO.

I take the underlying point that it is the spurious association between skirts and feminine gender which you object to. My point is that this may not be coming from the school but may just be implied by the press reports because of the reporters' own unconscious prejudices. I have been unable to find the wording of the school's policy, so I am not sure whether or not it actually contains that association, or implies any reasons why particular pupils may choose to wear one or other version of the school uniform.

By the way, this news is also being discussed in AngelsForum:
http://www.angelsforum.co.uk/phpforum/v ... =2&t=30987

[Couya]

How come you people know so much about "transgender"?
If you feel confused yourself, then you can offer a purely subjective opinion. How many transgender folk must you study for your statistics to gain objective status?
Not feeling confused myself, I can offer no opinion. Not having found any truly objective, statistically valid studies, I can draw no conclusions. Not having met many folk that want to tell me how they feel about themselves, the whole question remains purely conjectural.
Of course, I am glad to learn that Brighton College has allowed boys to wear skirts, but it is a pity that a boy cannot wear what he wants to, without having to claim allegiance to some religious or sexual minority.

Martin

[crfriend]

I take the underlying point that it is the spurious association between skirts and feminine gender which you object to.

I can't speak for Dillon, but that's precisely what set my teeth on edge.

It's good that various places are removing some of the boundaries when it comes to attire that's allowed for males, but what frosts me is that they're using logic that's obtuse and, in many instances, not only inappropriate but illogical. Why use an edge-case as a "justification" for an action when merely taking the action without "justification" would be possible? By using the edge-case for reasoning, one of necessity leaves out the much-larger number of cases -- and, in certain instances, might taint the reasoning itself.

I think it's great that this school has "de-gendered" (as a verb) clothing. I wish they'd left it at that and not painted the population of "gender-certain" (can't really use "straight" as that seems to be taking on a pejorative whiff of its own) out of the "protected box" which seems to allow skirts on blokes.

My point is that this may not be coming from the school but may just be implied by the press reports because of the reporters' own unconscious prejudices.

Indeed, and I'll accept that; however, there may be more to what's actually in the written policy at the school. It may have been "expounded upon" by the administrators when questioned by the press (if the press bothered, that is), and that's where the waters got muddied.

Part of the problem is that we -- society -- have precisely no idea how many perfectly "normal" "gender-certain" men there are who would entertain the idea of a lower garment that lacks inseams. This is because nobody studies the thoughts and concepts that humdrum straight guys have because nobody looks at humdrum straight guys as being worthy of study or even contemplation outside the "justice system".

[renesm1]

Hi - not passing judgement on anyone's comments here but more a comment here about that phrase "gender-certain". Nothing wrong with it at all, but the more common term used for people satisfied with their gender identification from birth is cis-gender (or cisgender).

As you say, many cisgendered people (a lot of you guys here, I'm guessing) would like to wear what the hell they like without someone questioning orientation, gender identification, etc.

I take the underlying point that it is the spurious association between skirts and feminine gender which you object to.

I can't speak for Dillon, but that's precisely what set my teeth on edge.

It's good that various places are removing some of the boundaries when it comes to attire that's allowed for males, but what frosts me is that they're using logic that's obtuse and, in many instances, not only inappropriate but illogical. Why use an edge-case as a "justification" for an action when merely taking the action without "justification" would be possible? By using the edge-case for reasoning, one of necessity leaves out the much-larger number of cases -- and, in certain instances, might taint the reasoning itself.

I think it's great that this school has "de-gendered" (as a verb) clothing. I wish they'd left it at that and not painted the population of "gender-certain" (can't really use "straight" as that seems to be taking on a pejorative whiff of its own) out of the "protected box" which seems to allow skirts on blokes.

My point is that this may not be coming from the school but may just be implied by the press reports because of the reporters' own unconscious prejudices.

Indeed, and I'll accept that; however, there may be more to what's actually in the written policy at the school. It may have been "expounded upon" by the administrators when questioned by the press (if the press bothered, that is), and that's where the waters got muddied.

Part of the problem is that we -- society -- have precisely no idea how many perfectly "normal" "gender-certain" men there are who would entertain the idea of a lower garment that lacks inseams. This is because nobody studies the thoughts and concepts that humdrum straight guys have because nobody looks at humdrum straight guys as being worthy of study or even contemplation outside the "justice system".

[dillon]

You're correct that I do not know the stated policy, only the statements of Brighton officials reported in the Telegraph, Guardian, and Daily Mail; all basically the same story. It is pretty express in saying that the dress code was changed to accomodate TG and gender dysphoric students. My complaint is that the school makes the presumption that any male choosing to wear a skirt is "special" i.e., abnormal. Worse was that it seemed they wanted a pat on the back for being PC, without realizing how prejudicial their statements, and how they painted with the same brushstroke all boys who might like to try a skirt, and painted them in the shade called trans-gender.

Why couldn't they just do the right thing without the (errant) grandstanding proclamation of their progressive outlook, which turned out to be rather shallow and castigating? Clearly they intended good but ended up revealing that they really needed to educate themselves better and perhaps rethink their own preconceived point of view. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed in the execution of good intentions. In the words of Michael O'Donnell, "half a mark."

[pelmut]

How come you people know so much about "transgender"?
If you feel confused yourself, then you can offer a purely subjective opinion. How many transgender folk must you study for your statistics to gain objective status?

I don't know why gender variation should be associated with confusion, I only realised I was most likely intergender when I became de-confused.

A couple of years ago, at about the same time as I joined this group, I set about reading various web groups to find out what sorts of things transgender, intergender and gender variant people were feeling and coming to terms with, so as to help sort out my own uncertainty. I also looked at homosexual, transvestite and other groups, to see if any of those overlapped with my own feelings (they didn't). It was interesting to find that this group contained some people with leanings towards each of those groups and others whose interests were mainly fashion-based; skirt-wearing being their common interest and with very little antagonism towards those who wore it for different reasons from themselves.

Having taken the first steps towards becoming comfortable with my own gender issues, I realised that they might indicate a drift towards some sort of transgenderism in the future, so I have kept in touch with some of the transgender groups and have developed considerable empathy towards them. I also have a number of friends and acquaintances who have transitioned, so I have learned a lot from them too. Given the recent amount of transgender interest in the media, I am almost tempted to re-phrase your question as "How come the majority of people still know so little about 'transgender'?"

Of course, I am glad to learn that Brighton College has allowed boys to wear skirts, but it is a pity that a boy cannot wear what he wants to, without having to claim allegiance to some religious or sexual minority.

I agree that it is a pity in some places, but I think that Brighton College is not one of those places. They appear to be making strenuous efforts to get it right and we are at risk of firing at the wrong target.

[crfriend]

[Brighton College A]ppear to be making strenuous efforts to get it right and we are at risk of firing at the wrong target.

Indeed, but to be certain of that we'd need access to not only the policy as written but also the thought-processes of those who penned it. To my personal knowledge, we currently have access to neither, so the best we can do is speculate.

Personally, when speculating, I tend to lean heavily towards the simple -- i.e. that usually the simplest rationale is likely to be the victor. This means that I don't like using edge-cases to explain things I've witnessed or read about (e.g. "epicycles" to explain the sometimes retrograde motion of planets when one could not admit that the Earth orbited the Sun). That notion also implies that the administration of Brighton "needed an explanation" for the move and picked "something handy" and "politically correct" as well as a small dollop of cowardice for having to hide behind something. Better would have been to simply come out and say, "Over time we've had a number of requests to relax our traditional gender-based dress-code, and having found no harm in doing so we have done just that in response." Period. Full stop. However, that takes guts -- and the willingness to stand up to the ignorant who will challenge the decision on the grounds of tradition alone.

In short, I think the Brighton administration took the easy way out. If I am proved incorrect in this theory, I'll accept that happily.

[denimini]

Brighton College has a made a positive step in allowing all pupils to identify with the gender they wish to, with parental approval. The uniforms are encouragingly named "Skirt Uniform" and "Trouser Uniform" which could be interpreted as non gender specific. The two uniforms are very similar in other aspects (skirt uniform in brackets); long sleeve white shirt (white long sleeve blouse), black V-neck jumper (same), College Tweed Jacket (College Tailored Black Bolero Jacket) black socks (white socks, black anklet socks or neutral coloured tights) and black shoes. As previously stated it is unfortunate that is is not just a simple choice of skirt or trousers for any gender. From my understanding it is not relaxation of gender based dress code. At present for a boy to wear a skirt he would have to identify as gender dysphoric to do so which is different to boys having a choice of clothing and hence why they are called uniforms. Sadly a person will only get to wear a skort for sports wear if opting for the skirt uniform. Curiously one can't wear make-up or nail varnish with a skirt uniform but it is not prohibited with trousers.

[moonshadow]

I have to admit... all this talk about labels, trans this, and cis that.... confuses the hell out of me.

I don't know other people, but I know me very well. I do live in my own head after all. And I can say this in that regard, I am me. I don't know what society would call me, and I'm sure different people would define me in different ways. But it really doesn't matter if they call me a cis, fem boy, transgender, man, woman wannabe, or a cat in a hat.... doesn't matter. I won't let people's use of a dictionary define ME.

All that being said.... if I were a young boy going to that school, with my current mentality. I'd certainly wear the skirt. If I have to check the proverbial "box" that says I'm a transgender... what ever. It's not going to change the FACT of the matter. And who knows... deep down, maybe I do have a female soul.... but that's neither here nor there....

It's like this story a co-worker told me about when he set up his trailer. The county health department wouldn't allow a three bedroom home to be erected on the current septic system. When asked "what should I do?" The lady at the county office said... "call it a two bedroom and a den".

That's what he did, and the trailer now sits at the site.

Sometimes we just do what we have to, and check the boxes we need to, to work within the bureaucracy.

I know a lot of you all may disagree, and I can respect that. Believe me... I KNOW what you're saying, and I agree, a boy SHOULDN'T have to submit to an ideal just to wear a skirt.... I'm just saying, I'd personally check the box, then look at the administrator and say "I'm still a boy". After all, they're just words. Words, clothing, and labels don't define who I am.

Wherever you go... there you are.

[Caultron]

[...sometimes I miss the "like" button, consider it pressed!

Like.