skirtcafe.org

I agree that the term "gender nonconforming" does implicitly rely on there being a standard against which it is measured as not conforming. Dr Diane Ehrensaft prefers the term "gender creative", as this gives the kids credit for taking society's notions of gender and getting creative with them. When it comes down to it, you need to use the available terms, regardless of whether or not you feel that they make any sense, otherwise communication becomes impossible.


Paul

I suppose the term, "nonconforming," could have a negative connotation but as long as the boy gets to wear his skirts and dresses I wouldn't argue semantics.

"Non gender-bound," perhaps, but again, I'm not into semantics.

Congratulations, Paul! A long and hard campaign but you won through in the end. Interesting that the governors didn't see a problem with boys in skirts.

ethelthefrog wrote:I agree that the term "gender nonconforming" does implicitly rely on there being a standard against which it is measured as not conforming. Dr Diane Ehrensaft prefers the term "gender creative", as this gives the kids credit for taking society's notions of gender and getting creative with them. When it comes down to it, you need to use the available terms, regardless of whether or not you feel that they make any sense, otherwise communication becomes impossible.


Paul

I like that. Thanks for sharing it.

a phrase i spotted on another site might be the answer as it can fit every possibility

Gender Independent

what do you guys think?

Reaper_Man wrote:a phrase i spotted on another site might be the answer as it can fit every possibility

Gender Independent

what do you guys think?

That works too. I think the two terms are essentially intended to be interchangeable, though gender creative infers, to me, the willingness to develop an identity that defies gender definition, while gender independent could imply either that or perhaps choosing a gender as your mood dictates.

Thought I'ld pass this info along - Gender Born, Gender Made at Amazon.com
This way anyone can get the book, read it and review it for the forum.
At 64 years of age, I'm beyond the child rearing stage, so it's up to other
Cafe' members to do this.

Uncle Al

My kindle copy of this book is starting to get a bit dog-eared and tattered. I think I'm going to have to hold it together with sticky tape before long.

It's an excellent book that covers the history of how gender was taught on psychology/psychiatry courses in recent decades, and how Dr Ehrensaft's clinical and family experience have caused her to re-evaluate what gender means and how it is lived and expressed by real people in a species that produces a range of sexes, genders and orientations. There are chapters on how being differently-gendered affects all members of the family, from the differently-gendered child, their siblings, their parents and the wider family. The importance of generating a support system for the whole family is not to be underestimated.

It's a fine book, worth a read even if you're not the parent of a gender-creative child.

Uncle Al wrote:Thought I'ld pass this info along - Gender Born, Gender Made at Amazon.com
This way anyone can get the book, read it and review it for the forum.
At 64 years of age, I'm beyond the child rearing stage, so it's up to other
Cafe' members to do this.

Uncle Al

One of my local library branches has a copy on the shelf (according to the online catalog), the one at the other branch is checked out. I'll have to wonder over tomorrow night and grab the available copy. The SFPL has 11 copies scattered throughout the system.

I have a copy of Gender Born, Gender Made. It's a good book, and one worth reading if you get the chance, though I didn't find it quite as good as I'd hoped. I think it focuses more on the transgender side of things. To be honest, while some parts resonated to a degree, overall it felt like it was targeted at a different audience. One that is undoubtedly needful, but I suspect many members here will feel it overall more tangential to our interest. Still, I think reading it probably help me sort out a thing or two about myself.

Saw this comment earlier today (Sat) on https://www.facebook.com/letclothesbeclothes-

"Really? Still think they are different styles though looking at them (my school would never have allowed the boys shoe as it's a trainer - we had no gender differences, there was one uniform list and you could wear anything off it and yes, we had a few boys turn up in skirts"
(From a discussion about the different quality of boys and girls school shoes Thread title: 'Clarks Shoes this is appalling')