skirtcafe.org

Gender ranking-are we comparing apples and oranges?

Caultron wrote:To me, a transvestite is someone who wears dresses, high heels, makeup, and a wig in order to look like a woman, or possibly to assume the role of one.

That's the definition I am drawn to, also, but sadly it's not the commonly-held one.

This is different from a man who decides that skirts looklike interesting and comfortable garments, and tries wearing one and likes it even though they're usually associated with women.

Very much so, but, again, there's the problem of popular perception, and that is what we ultimately have to change.

But both face the problem of social acceptance, and that leads to anxiety and the need for a certain degree of bravado.

I'm not sure that "bravado" is quite the ticket, as "bravado" implies a fair amount of "swagger" and cockiness which can be a bit of a put-off to some folks. I rather try to cultivate confidence which brings with it a sort of sense of serenity that doesn't overpower the room but is very unmistakable nonetheless (Think Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars during the scene in the bar).

JohnH wrote:It is a double standard if there is ever one where it is acceptable for a female to be a tomboy but it is shameful for a male to be a nancigirl (a male with a feminine streak).

John

I believe a similar term is Janegirl. Defined in the Urban Dictionary: "A boy who dresses and sometimes behaves the way girls are expected to, often into more feminine things like dolls, dancing, fashion, gymnastics or beauty. Stereotypically wears clothing of more feminine taste and design but not necessarily full drag."

This is different from a man who decides that skirts looklike interesting and comfortable garments, and tries wearing one and likes it even though they're usually associated with women

Well, I'd be lying if I claimed I see no deeper psychological issues with my preference for dressing in the more obviously feminine, delicate styles of past centuries. But after spending some 40+ years trying to figure it out, I just stopped caring. I am what I am, ya know? For whatever reason, wearing a silk or satin or velvet gown with lots of ribbons or bows scratches *some* itch that I can't begin to identify or understand. It doesn't hurt anybody, it doesn't interfere with my relationship with my wife or children, so... I'll just let it be and not lose any sleep over what buried childhood trauma or genetic twist or hormonal variance make me what I am. As the psalmist says, "I am fearfully and wonderfully made", and that's good enough for me.

Right on, Bro...I second that emotion! I'm not one for bright colors or frills, but there are looks and textures that definitely strike a place inside me. I can't define it, and why should I? Let the world get used to it...

Ralph wrote:

This is different from a man who decides that skirts looklike interesting and comfortable garments, and tries wearing one and likes it even though they're usually associated with women

Well, I'd be lying if I claimed I see no deeper psychological issues with my preference for dressing in the more obviously feminine, delicate styles of past centuries. But after spending some 40+ years trying to figure it out, I just stopped caring. I am what I am, ya know? For whatever reason, wearing a silk or satin or velvet gown with lots of ribbons or bows scratches *some* itch that I can't begin to identify or understand. It doesn't hurt anybody, it doesn't interfere with my relationship with my wife or children, so... I'll just let it be and not lose any sleep over what buried childhood trauma or genetic twist or hormonal variance make me what I am. As the psalmist says, "I am fearfully and wonderfully made", and that's good enough for me.

You have to admit the standards of men's apparel is now very restricted. In earlier times men wore fancy wigs, skirts, ruffled blouses, high heels, and makeup. Their clothes had lace and ribbons on them.

John

JohnH wrote:

skirtingtoday wrote: As PS has already commented, “one is socialized into a gender” rings so true. MOH has on occasions said to me that she wants a “man to be a man” and that she doesn’t want him to look like Arnie or be a brute. I think she believes that “men” wear trousers and not skirts even though she predominantly wears trousers herself.

For what's it worth:

I seem to recall that in ancient Rome if a man were to show up publicly his personal property would be seized. I also recall the Romans had a term for pants: feminalia. Back then a real man wore a skirt.

My dear wife has bought me a number of dresses and purses, and she wears pants predominantly. There are times around the house when I have a dress on and she wears pants.

John

This is a really interesting post, I had never heard that before. I think I remember reading that the Romans considered pants barbaric. Do you mean, "if a man were to show up publicly wearing pants his personal property would be seized? That's what I took this to mean. Thanks in advance for the clarification!

JohnH wrote:You have to admit the standards of men's apparel is now very restricted. In earlier times men wore fancy wigs, skirts, ruffled blouses, high heels, and makeup. Their clothes had lace and ribbons on them.

Good point, though at the time that wasn't considered cross-dressing. Men and women still had different fashions and styles.

But it does show how style change.

Caultron wrote:

JohnH wrote:You have to admit the standards of men's apparel is now very restricted. In earlier times men wore fancy wigs, skirts, ruffled blouses, high heels, and makeup. Their clothes had lace and ribbons on them.

Good point, though at the time that wasn't considered cross-dressing. Men and women still had different fashions and styles.

But it does show how style change.

Perhaps a lot of "crossdressers" might not necessarily wish to look like women but might be looking for clothing and grooming options outside the narrow confines of current male fashion. They might feel the only way they may be socially successful is if they strive to look like women.

John

JohnH wrote:Perhaps a lot of "crossdressers" might not necessarily wish to look like women but might be looking for clothing and grooming options outside the narrow confines of current male fashion. They might feel the only way they may be socially successful is if they strive to look like women.

If the objective is to get away from current male fashion, women's fashions are definitely the first that come to mind.

But to present oneself entirely as a woman, in order to stay "under the radar" seems a losing proposition. Very few men can carry this off, and if you can't, the disapproval will probably be much greater than if you just wore a skirt.

Because as many here will attest, the fear of rejection is usually far greater than any actual rejection. We're caught up in this thing emotionally, while others are not.

Caultron wrote:[... As] many here will attest, the fear of rejection is usually far greater than any actual rejection. We're caught up in this thing emotionally, while others are not.

Indeed, and that's because we are heavily invested in the notion whereas the observer isn't. This is why we're so sensitive. The trick to reducing that sensitivity to rejection is simply be yourself and let any negative commentary roll off.

My personal observation is that if somebody is going to say something to your face it's almost always positive or inquisitive -- and it's important to not take an inquisitive comment negatively as the person may really be genuinely interested and interpreting that wrong can lead you to make a mistake and appear rude without meaning to.

Dressing plays important role to attract someone. Men likes women clothing and young girls get remarks from men. European and Asian style fashion are important. Styles Vogue and Vogue styles collection has lots of ideas for women to impress married persons.

crfriend wrote:

skirtingtoday wrote:MOH has on occasions said to me that she wants a “man to be a man” and that she doesn’t want him to look like Arnie or be a brute.

Isn't she contradicting herself just a little bit with that observation? I mean Arnie is one heck of an example of a "man's man", just like the "Marlboro Man" before him. How about Clint Eastwood.

Stereotypically, men aren't particular sympathetic or empathetic, does she discourage you from those traits?

But, here I find myself applying logic to the situation -- and we all know that doesn't work.

I have always found small-talk with guys to be pretty shallow unless there are interests that mesh well. I can go for hours on LASERs, computers, and whatnot if there's interest, but sports (which is what guys usually seem drawn to) put me off and always have. The gals usually touch on the more human side of things than, "Did you see that game-winning play last night?!"

To answer a few points - MOH does not particularly like the Clint Eastwood type either but goes more for the Robert Redford, James Stewart, Sean Connery or David Hyde Pierce but not for instance Clark Gable. Probably more the softer-featured, gentler types - the more caring type if you see what I mean, not the caveman dragging you off to your cave!

Ross

And as regarding empathy, that is one thing she does want to encourage!! I do sometimes think she doesn't have any empathy for me. Particularly as regards skirt-wearing, even in the house.

And on sports chat between male colleagues, the "What did you think of that penalty decision?" or, "Did you see the Grand Prix on Saturday" or "Who do you think is being transferred now?", chatter leaves me cold as well. Indeed MOH follows more football (ie soccer) than I do!