Women Speak Up

[Brandy]

And frankly, ... sometimes ...I see pictures posted that I look at and think "Wow, that just looks atrocious" and then there's all these comments that just say "Hey great!" "Way to go!" or similar feedback.

Is it possible that this is a matter of differing tastes?

For instance, when someone posts a picture of a man in a skirt, no matter how well done it may be, you'll always see a lot of negative comments.

Just a small comment here. This reminds of a comment I made to a Lady workmate when discussing my UK's, skirts and PH wearing in general. My comment was: "I grew up as a conservative Wisconsin farm boy, I'm still that way even in my choice of skirts..." So just because an outfit looks good on some else does not mean that I would wear it. Conversly; just because you do not like the outfit, does not mean it does not look good.

I have also seen a lot of women dress thenselves really terrible, that is one reason for the popularity of the make over programs. Many hints can be found there but realaise some comments are meant for WOMEN and do not fit men. Comments about color and balance are good.

I've found a few things that work for me. Look in at yourself in a long mirror does the out fit look balanced? And are you comfortable to be seen in it? If both of those answers are yes then go out. If not start over.

-- Brandy

[RyeOfTheDead]

I think most men dress to impress or at least be accepted by other men. Actually, I think both men and women are mostly looking to not be conspicuous, to "fit in." If all the other guys are wearing too-short trousers with the knees worn through, a man who is spending much time with them is going to feel uncomfortable wearing properly-fitting, well-maintained trousers, no matter what his wife or girlfriend or the ladies who are always making passes at him in the pub have to say.

I think that I addressed this point exactly when I said this:

I think the reason is that in truth, most guys don't care about their own personal style, or in contrast care very much about it but their concerns is more with conforming so that they don't stand out, which contradicts my own statement a bit, but not entirely. These kind of guys dress for other guys, or rather, purposefully don't dress with any sort of creativity so that they are not ostracized by their peers.

I think amongst women, women dress for each other and actually do try to embellish or create their own personal style, sure they emulate and fall into niches and subculture, but girls do want other girls to be impressed by what they do with their own look, which is why women are often complimenting each other on their outfits, because there's a bond that forms with stuff like that. Men do the opposite, or at least a lot of men do. Men almost subconsciously don't dress with any sort of flair because they want to try to blend in as much as they can with their buddies.

Is it possible that this is a matter of differing tastes?

Perhaps, but if I see a lot of people commenting positively on something that I personally think looks bad, it doesn't always make me trust them if my issue is my own personal style, which is what Silky was addressing on this thread and I think is a valid point.

For instance, when someone posts a picture of a man in a skirt, no matter how well done it may be, you'll always see a lot of negative comments.

True, but this could be less a matter of taste and more a matter of stigmas and cultural norms.

[Bob]

... in general (straight) guys are usually dressing to impress potential sexual partners.

I think there's truth to that when we're young. But once we find ourselves in a stable long-term relationship, impressing potential sexual partners no longer counts for anything, and can even be negative.

Impressing other men has a longer shelf life, probably well into our 30's. But again... once we've become settled in our careers and valued for what we can bring to the table, that fades as well.

I'm told that in our 40's, we end up adopting a "don't give a $@!&" attitude, and stop trying to impress anyone.

[RyeOfTheDead]

I think there's truth to that when we're young. But once we find ourselves in a stable long-term relationship, impressing potential sexual partners no longer counts for anything, and can even be negative.

I don't disagree, however the OP was someone that we can assume is not in a LTR and was looking for the perspective of females in order to get an idea of what potential mates would think about his clothes. Unfortunately as was pointed out, the selection of females on this board is rather small and it is a little bit of a burden to expect them to be able to speak on behalf of women everywhere.

[crfriend]

I'm told that in our 40's, we end up adopting a "don't give a $@!&" attitude, and stop trying to impress anyone.

From personal experience (having been 40+ for the better part of a decade) that observation is only partially correct. I have a strong understanding of the impressions that others have of me, and in some situations I need to pay particular attention to those in order to either make a point or to get what I want out of "the system". In short, I try not to do anything really stupid that would detract from my credentials that I've spent a lifetime developing and nurturing.

The above having been said, I do have a sense that I am "bargaining from a position of strength" when it comes to matters of personal appearance. For instance, I have waist-length hair, and I've had that for decades; I get jobs with it, and there's not any problems with it; my credentials and experience override any scepticism that an interviewer may have. (Note: I work in a profession where long hair is regarded by more than a few as a status symbol.) However, I'd likely not wear a skirt for an interview as that might just be a wee bit too much; this is why I pulled my imagery earlier this year when it looked like I'd be seeking a new position in the worst employment times since the 1930s. One does not need casual distractions. The hair is a very long-term "investment", at an average half-inch growth per month, my nearly 2 1/2 foot mane took six years plus to grow and longer to properly establish itself; a skirt can be popped on or off in several seconds. The first time I wore a skirt to work (non-Halloween) I had a pair of trousers in my laptop bag "just in case".

Unfortunately as was pointed out, the selection of females on this board is rather small and it is a little bit of a burden to expect them to be able to speak on behalf of women everywhere.

Not only is it a "little bit of a burden" it's also rather unfair as each one of them here has her own sense of style and fashion sense, may not necessarily agree with the others, and certainly cannot be construed to represent the judgment of women worldwide. I don't presume to speak for anyone here but myself; why should our women citizens be expected to do so?

[sapphire]

Early on in this thread, I posted a reply to silky's query.

There have been no reponses at all, yet there continues to be speculation about what women would think or what their motives would be.

Why on Earth should I respond further? So I can be ignored once again? Why should any woman reply given that her responses will be ignored?

[RyeOfTheDead]

Not only is it a "little bit of a burden" it's also rather unfair as each one of them here has her own sense of style and fashion sense, may not necessarily agree with the others, and certainly cannot be construed to represent the judgment of women worldwide. I don't presume to speak for anyone here but myself; why should our women citizens be expected to do so?

Is it really that unfair though? People do this type of thing all the time, I have most certainly been asked by my female friends for a "guy's perspective" on something, heck my friend Jenny often has me peruse emails she is planning to send to guys she's dating to see what my response would be if someone would send it to me, I'm even famous amongst her friends because I ghostwrote a rejection letter for her to send to a guy who was being a little too pushy when the email she had sent didn't quite sink in. Other friends of hers have used this same letter, adapted to their situation a bit perhaps but most of the wording, as a "script" when letting a guy down. I'm often asked what I think of a particular dress or look before someone heads out to an event and such. I guess I fail to see what was really so audacious of Silky to make a similar request.

There have been no reponses at all, yet there continues to be speculation about what women would think or what their motives would be.

Why on Earth should I respond further? So I can be ignored once again? Why should any woman reply given that her responses will be ignored?

I am not sure if your reference to being ignored refers specifically to the OP who hasn't posted again, or to the rest of us in the thread for not responding to what you were saying. I know that my post immediately following your post was in direct response to what you said. You told him to look through the pics and looks section to see what he thought appealed to his style and body type, and my response began with "Another suggestion too." As in, "In addition to what was just said."

I think no one else has commented on your post because starting with the post immediately after my response to it, the thread went in an entirely different direction that had more to do with some of us agreeing an some of us disagreeing with the philosophical nature of Silky's OP. Which, I imagine, has had something to do with the fact that we haven't seen another post by him since.

[Neil]

Early on in this thread, I posted a reply to silky's query.

There have been no reponses at all, yet there continues to be speculation about what women would think or what their motives would be.

Why on Earth should I respond further? So I can be ignored once again? Why should any woman reply given that her responses will be ignored?

Obviously the conversation moved from fashion advice to highly technical stuff that women just shouldn't be involved in, like cars or computers or figuring out what women think. I thought you learned that last month!

[kidme]

Early on in this thread, I posted a reply to silky's query.

Why should any woman reply given that her responses will be ignored?

Speaking as another newbie in this forum...
1) I actually can't tell the gender of the participants here from their replies.
2) The thread has more replies on "Why the question should not be asked"
3) most of the posts are from men.

I would have given up reading on the discussion of whether the 1st post should/should not been posted.

As a newbie, I wouldn't have known until I saw the photo "Sapphire treks Westward!" posted a few days ago. That actually caught me: "Sapphire is a lady?"

[sapphire]

Neil wrote:
highly technical stuff that women just shouldn't be involved in, like cars or computers

Where were you in 1968? I was building computers.

Ever hear of a sporting goods company called Spalding? I built their first computer network.

And the beat goes on. By the time I retired, I had lead computer projects on three continents, spoken at varios computer conferences, taught database design and project management. Then I went on to a professorship in computer science and mathematics.

Oh yeah, and I've also designed clothing and am a great cook. (just to keep things "womanly")

[crfriend]

Obviously the conversation moved from fashion advice to highly technical stuff that women just shouldn't be involved in, like cars or computers or figuring out what women think. I thought you learned that last month!

Well, there's a nice high-quality sexist remark; I hope you consider yourself proud. Do you treat your girlfriend in that manner, or are you single?

I believe you would do well to contemplate that women can be just as technically adept as men. I also believe you would do well to contemplate that remarks and attitudes such as yours are overtly destructive when it comes to gaining support for our desire to integrate skirts into our wardrobes from our sisters. People do not join communities to be insulted and degraded; if that's the perception that women get of men in skirts, then it'll be destructive.

So, take your sexist attitude and run along. And put your pants back on.

[Since1982]

Hear Hear, Carl!! I was thinking pretty much the same thing when I read that.

[Uncle Al]

Early on in this thread, I posted a reply to silky's query.

There have been no reponses at all, yet there continues to be speculation
about what women would think or what their motives would be.

Why on Earth should I respond further? So I can be ignored once again?
Why should any woman reply given that her responses will be ignored?

Obviously the conversation moved from fashion advice to highly technical stuff
that women just shouldn't be involved in, like cars or computers or figuring out
what women think. I thought you learned that last month!

(Mod Hat On)

Neil---Please refer to Forum Rules

1. ABOVE ALL: Respect for others at all times. No profanity/swearing. No personal insults.

With your statements, you are not following forum rules & guidelines!

You DO owe Sapphire an appology for your sexist remarks.


Also, so that you're aware, crfriend and sapphire are husband and wife.

She can handle a computer keyboard or a chainsaw with out any problem.

She renovated her home as contractor and carpenter. She is not 'afraid' of
this kind of work. She did this prior to meeting, and marrying, crfriend.

I am bending the rules when I say that she has more 'Moxie' in her
little finger than you have in understanding common courtesy and
respect for others in this 'cyber community'.

This thread needs to get back on topic or,

IT WILL BE LOCKED

(Mod Hat Off)
Uncle Al

[alexthebird]

Obviously the conversation moved from fashion advice to highly technical stuff that women just shouldn't be involved in, like cars or computers or figuring out what women think. I thought you learned that last month!

I took this as an entirely ironic, tongue-in-cheek comment. Imagine this being spoken, not written, and with grotesque hand and head gestures accompanying "highly technical stuff" or "figuring out what women think." I've got a picture in my head of a Michael Palin character on Monty Python perhaps, or someone doing an impersonation of Sigmund Freud.

I could be wrong. Neil could have written this without irony, in which case he'd be an insensitive jerk. Or, he could have intended it as a send-up of knee-jerk macho anti-feminist theorizing, in which case the reaction that he has inspired has demonstrated an intrinsic weakness of the internet - the ability to convey any nuance whatsoever to the written word.

[crfriend]

I could be wrong. Neil could have written this without irony, in which case he'd be an insensitive jerk. Or, he could have intended it as a send-up of knee-jerk macho anti-feminist theorizing, in which case the reaction that he has inspired has demonstrated an intrinsic weakness of the internet - the ability to convey any nuance whatsoever to the written word.

If his intent was at humour, it failled miserably. Not even the "smiley" could possibly have rescued it. In fact, the "smiley" was the ethical equivalent of playing things up whilst wearing "blackface". It does not work.

At the risk of sounding like a complete SOB, did you really mean "ability" or "inability" above? (Yes, I do have my shorts in a knot.)

Any literary format (the IntarTubes seemingly don't count) is perfectly capable of communicating irony, parody, ridicule, or whatever tone one wants to convey; it is the author's responsibility to properly choose his (or her) words to drive the message home in the vein it was intended. Note the use of the term "responsibility"; if one is trying to be flippant or offhand, then one needs to really choose one's words extremely carefully so the point is made -- and interpreted -- so. Any failures in this regard can, and have in the past, have disastrous consequences.

If you're joking about something, choose your words well. If you're a sexist prick, take it someplace else.