skirtcafe.org

JR, what exactly do you mean by Femme?

When I wear my stuff I wear it as a male. End of subject.

If my legs look a little more... refined, then that is what they are. They are not feminine merely because they lack hair or are hosed.

I don't really see many guys here that fit into the CD or "femme"

So who are your referring to JR? Need clarification.

As stated, if you shy away from true freestyle, then don't go into the freestyle section. Simple as that.

I hardly ever go to the kilts only section cause I find kilts boring.

Since1982 wrote:How about this choice. Or maybe I don't understand "splitting" the board. My idea is to have a completely new site for freestylers, with new sign on names, and nothing but what freestylers want to talk about allowed on that site. Leaving Skirtcafe to be a nothing but Skirts and Kilts for men as it's mostly been for the last 4 years, site. Whaddaya think?

Please do not see this as personal at all, but would you want to hear a pin drop, listen to the crickets miles away?
Within all reason, when the few people who have made extreme postings of late, if they would just relax, have a beer or whatever, and behave as they I would imagine did beforehand, everything would be back to normal. Of course there may be some, one, two, maybe three or are there more? Who are so desperate to have a forum that is so very narrow, you couldn't place a pin on it, looking with tunnel vision perhaps? If that is what some want then go ahead, be another Bravehearts forum. Isolating themselves from the crosssection of the population, of skirt wearing MEN, in all their nuances. People in a normal state of mind are generally not effected by statements from others who differ in meaning from them. Up til now the postings have straightened themselves out in a very pleasurable way. Excepting on occasions when one or a few.. have deliberately been stoking up the fires forcing others to douce them. And others unthoughtfully over reacting where that was uncalled for. That behavior will always be part of the persons involved, and has nothing to do with the forum at all. It is those few who should be addressed.

There is enough gentle respectful intervention when THOUGHT needed by posters, members keeping each other on track. Thus with an end result being a comfortable place to talk skirts and all that GOES WITH THAT, taking on reality, not denying it, not discriminating anybody, being an open minded place. That place, skirt cafe as it was up until now is the result of input from the men who are now interested and hopefully openly wearing skirts and that which goes with them.

If the cafe ""should "" be anything more onesided, well come on! Everybody practically is welcome, nothing stopping men posting with their very manly get ups whatever. Have the "rightwing" I suppose I could call it, manly skirt wearers, ( Of which there is totally nothing wrong with) ( and all others being left wing ) realised / do they realise that the skirt cafe is a reflection of the real skirt community ? ( who have found this cafe and want to be part of the community)

Thus showing that if it would be so, that manly wearers, right wingers, ( I don't like naming but "it" has to have a name) are in the minority, or so it would SEEM by the postings of some.. ( or maybe not, I havent taken a tally) Not because anybody is pushing anything, as is suggested, but because although somewhat denied, it is apparently so that many other skirt wearers are men who in the skirt outfit finally have found a way to express themselves which is that they are not all wood chopping raw meat eating women hunting, whatever macho men, but have a ...""softer"" side to their feelings, character, and can finally express that in their clothing. Or just simply the fact that there are a lot of blokes out there who don't want to be so "manly" dressed, either in pants or skirts, and of course many blokes who find it great to dress manly but without the clothing seams between the legs. like All people have a different character, man or woman, varying from person to person. Skirted men are no different. Only it is usually not easily seen or shown when men dress as ""NORMAL"" men, ugh hate that term.

So where do the members on this forum want to be part of? This forum or a part of a part of a part of a part of a two man group...? The forum as it is and functions is such a fine place for all, makes you feel that the world is a great place to live in, I would nearly say "as was intended". Is unique. Alienating ourselves by splitting up is definitely the wrong way to go. People wanting something I would describe here as narrow, (although I do understand fully their arguments) specially tailored to their specific needs, go ahead, go. But leave this forum as it is. Please.

Any accusation or suggestion I have made is in no way meant to look or be negative, so please do not see it as such even if that may be a first reaction.

JRMILLER wrote:I have to agree with Merlin. The reason I joined this group in the first place was because it was men who wanted to be "men", but were interested in kilts and skirts. I have visited and contributed to some of the CD groups, but they make me uncomfortable and I have quite going there. If the femme trend continues here, I will probably leave.

-john

Sorry, but no offence, Uncomfortable? Do you mean that YOU feel uncomfortable, are you perhaps not so sure of yourself?
What makes you uncomfortable? Do women in pants also make you uncomfortable? It is very important to know if possible what that is, that feeling, to be able to perhaps do something about it, forum wise. There is no Fe_me trend, there may be more men finally telling what they probably have kept hidden all the past years, for fear of not being "accepted" or for fear of making people like yourself (might be your neighbour) uncomfortable, not because of what they are doing. And a great lapse of input from other "manly" skirted men, which is possably a reason for the suggested situation.

Men are still men here. I do feel a very slight sway to discriminatory ( meant or not) posts when I read posts written as was yours. But that may also be what, MAY mind you, what people think of ANY man seen in a skirt. They may feel uncomfortable, but they don't know what it is do they? We do, or should. It is intelect, interest in the matter, respect that lets us open our eyes and see things in an open unbiased way.

All that does not mean that you, figuratively speaking, cannot feel a certain way about certain things. You can and may. But I think that as a member of the cafe it is expected of us to be openminded, respectful and of course not needed to feel uncomfortable, as it is everybody his own thing, covering the whole MANLY skirt wearing spectrum, with the guide line, not an absolute, being MEN in a skirt.

Pythos wrote:
As stated, if you shy away from true freestyle, then don't go into the freestyle section. Simple as that.

I hardly ever go to the kilts only section cause I find kilts boring.

That is very well said, I love kilts, don't have them, therefore can't wear them, and for me the kilt section is also boring, and I only look occasionally at the new posts.The forum caters for all MEN wearing skirts, based and constantly being talked about, the MEN in skirts, in a very manly way, but does in no way exclude men who seek the barriers. Men who would be anything but men, would I imagine find it boring here and soon seek a better site for their wants. It is self regulating, but the whole character sways to and fro on the input from MEN in skirts, of all nuances. This forum is like a public library that caters for all genres, no extreme violence, po,,n or other. For those who ant any special interest books they can go to the specialist. This forum is nothing different.

I haven't made many contributing posts, but I have been reading this forum since the winter and I have enjoyed reading through the archives. I just thought that I'd put my two cents in as I do appreciate this forum and its members and discussion.

First, JRMILLER and merlin, I should say that I have enjoyed and learned from your posts and I feel that this forum is a better place for your membership. But I share Pythos's confusion: I haven't seen any guy (read: sex-determined male) on this board not also self-identify as male. Is the problem stemming from a view that not everyone on the board gender-presents as male? I don't hold that view, but if you do - where do you propose to draw the line between someone gender-presenting as male and someone not gender-presenting as male? If it's not the problem, can you help us better understand what the root problem is?

I, for one, appreciate the diversity (though, like many here, would not personally dress at the extreme of the continuum (a matter of style, I suppose)), but I do not want the 'old guard', if you will allow me use of that phrase, to leave, as that would likely subtract from the diversity of vocal opinion.

Respectfully,
Steve

Who am I referring to? No one in particular Mr. Pythos, and I have never had a beef with you in particular. It's more the tone of recent articles, they are more reminiscent of articles seen on CD sites. Such titles as:

Who Shaves
Pantyhose and tights
Mary Jane Shoes
Men Wearing Nail Polish.

All would fit in quite well at any CD site and is out of scope for this site's charter.

-john

One thing I've not seen visited in this conversation about divergent sites. There's no law against joining "both" sites if that's your trend. That way the folks that want strict "we want to wear everything that women can wear" like one of our members has suggested can visit SkirtCafe as long as they don't talk about the subjects that make the hard core skirts and kilts guys uneasy and vice versa. There are thousands of sites on the web. If they were all the same site and talked about everything all the time it would be a lifelong flame war. That's exactly why there are divergent sites. I really think with the loss of IMFF and the tuning down of the Atrium those men that want to "wear anything a woman can wear" NEED a new site for themselves with moderators that are of the quality that our moderators are.

and JR, I would also note, that all of those threads you posted on, are in the freestyle, or the ex other stuff sections. If you have no interest in such, then why go there.

I wore nail polish...AS A GOTH!!! along with make up..

Mary Jane shoes, one person goes on about those IMO god awful things, and that person is rarely around here lately.

Pantyhose and tights go along with skirt wearing, male or female.

You have to let it all go, Free your mind
Morpheous the matrix.

Pythos wrote: Pantyhose and tights go along with skirt wearing, male or female.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't pantyhose specifically FOR people without male plumbing, and doesn't the "panty" part of pantyhose have no opening for a male liquid releasing organ to find it's way to a place where it can release liquid into the toilet? I can't see how a front zippered denim or twill skirt could work while standing up with pantyhose or any panty type underwear on. Just my opinion, am I wrong?

I've been wearing skirts publically for 3 years now and have never pulled down/lifted up my clothing to take a leak. I just zip down and do my thing. As, I assume, any male skirt wearer with a front zippered skirt would do.

Dear Pythos,
I and "we" in general are not the enemy here. You should not be jumping down our throats because we have an opinion, we are the closest supporters you may ever have. Your posts suggest you are in a "dog eating" mood and I can only guess that this has something to do with the way you think the world is reacting to you when you are dressed the way you do. It's almost as if you have a chip on your shoulder and I think the your choice of wardrobe and your interaction with the public "at large" has fostered this attitude.

I saw the same attitude in Tommy Beartooth at the Atrium and that's one reason I simply don't go there anymore. I don't need this kind of poison in my life, I have plenty of my own issues to struggle with.

I strongly suggest you take a look in the mirror and do some inner reflection. You are not coming off as a joyful and happy person. Wearing what you like to wear should be liberating and giving you an inner sense of joy.

-john

[Mod hat off]

I really hope that things aren't "hotting up" again, because that'd be sad. It'd drive some of the community members away, perhaps permanently, and I don't want to see that.

Here's how I view things at the moment, and I'm going to have to put "names" to some of them. As SkirtCafe walks down the knife-edge (a term suggested to me by another "citizen" in a private message) between the ultra-macho "kilts and kilts only" world and the "T*" world we seem to carry more baggage on one side of that knife-edge than the other -- and it's on the "freestyle" "side". This is explainable, I suspect, and I'm going to take a bash at it now, in an attempt to explain my reasoning. In this I'm going to have to use names as notions so please bear with me. So, we have, and in no particular order lest the reader think I place more value on one than another:

Left of the center-line (the "knife-edge") we have the folks who exclusively wear kilts, and will not entertain the notion of wearing something non-pleated. This is perfectly fine, but options can be somewhat limited, especially as kilt-rigs seem to be fairly constrained by "rules and regulations" as to how to wear them. This, fortunately, seems to be dissipating with the rise of "casual kilts" but once one wants to get into a more formal look the "rules" are in one's face. For those who fall into this "bucket", you have my appreciation as kilts can make for a damned good look! "KILT-ON!"

Right in the center (on the "edge" as it were) we have the chaps who incorporate non-pleated "unbifurcated" garments, primarily, it seems, the ubiquitous "invisible" denim skirt. This is a look that, from all experiences mentioned here, works quite well and, in fact, usually goes un-noticed. It's interesting to note that most of the denim skirts manufactured owe so much to their dungaree ancestor that they have a fly that fastens in the style of a pair of mens' trousers (although sometimes it's fairly vestigal). However, there's only so much that can be done with such a garment. Note that I also lump in "mens' skirts" marketed to men in this category, although they're positively tiny in number, and many of the designs go a bit overboard in trying to look "masculine". These looks work, and work well on guys, and may represent the near-term future of the "MIS Movement".

Finally, we have the third contingent to the "right of center" -- the "freestylers". In this classification, pretty much anything goes that's within the taste boundaries of the individual who chooses to dress in such a manner -- and the scope of possibilities is mind-bogglingly vast. It's also the classification where things can get dicey because so much of it is open to personal taste and whim. Depending on how far to the "right" one goes, the look can be rather close to the "denim skirt" look to borderline TV stuff (which is where SkirtCafe sets its "rightmost" border). That encompasses a lot of turf -- far more so than the other two categories combined; note that SkirtCafe doesn't have a "leftmost" boundary -- what can be more "masculine" than a right-proper formal kilt rig.

As things turn out, we have exemplars from every "faction" (for want of a better term, and I may edit this later if I find one) above, and they are all to be applauded for their fine sartorial senses. I'm not going to name names here, but a look through the assorted imagery will point them up; they're the ones that you look at and go, "Wow! That looks good!" You know who you are. And well done.

If one looks at the above nomenclature, as we seem to have been using it, it becomes apparent that SkirtCafe *does* seem to have a bit of a "right-leaning" tendency mainly because of scope and mass. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does seem to generate some friction as personal tastes rub up against each other and create friction. As an individual contributor, and this entire post is written from that perspective, I think that maintaining the "big tent" approach is best as it exposes people to a broad range of ideas and philosophies. True, not everybody is going to agree with everybody else, but so long as we maintain a sense of dignity and respect everything should be fine.

In conclusion (you couldn't wait to get here, could you, and you're thanking the writer for shutting up), we're likely to never agree on matters of personal taste (else it wouldn't be individual would it) and probably not on personal aesthetics, either. This is OK, and to be expected. What we should all be agreeing on, however, is that "unbifurcated" garments can -- and do -- work on guys and should be promoted. This should be our touchstone, not arguing about whether one bloke's personal taste lines up with ours or not.

Cheers!

I’m not one for making long draw out speeches and I won’t be voting,
so if I like what I see I will remain a member
if not I will leave

Agreed Cf, your post puts it not only in a nutshell, but on the tree safe and sound.

Jr, I was not "attacking you", I was pointing out to you that your saying those things are strictly fem are placing a boundry or limitation on what I and others here can wear, and be accepted in this group.

There was one thing that you automatically linked with being feminine, Nail polish. This is a fallacy, nail polish is not strictly feminine, nor is make up. If done correctly it can add to the "macho" image or at least make the person more frightening (I mean, isn't that macho, scaring people? At least according to our culture and society it seems that way).

Hose and tights were originally male garb, but adapted and later taken by women as their own. (I know I have driven this point into the ground, but some here still don't seem to get that)

Speaking of those people, I am sure they want me to leave. But I have gotten more compliments about my style here than negative comments. Perhaps there are more people here with negative feelings toward my style, but do not have the time or courage to tell me so.

I am trying to think when I actually did put someone's style down, constructive criticism aside. Aside from the Bri incident, and suggesting another chap here drop the trainers with opague tights and skirt look, I can think of none. I have never flat out said, "you look too girlie, or manly in that getup" or anything along those lines. I have also never been told flat out this kind of thing about my style (aside when Bri tried to make a point about how it felt to be critiqued). The only time I felt the need to go on the defensive is when someone says the board is going too femme, but give absolutely no examples of which post or poster has prompted this suggestion.

Being told by people here that miniskirts are "for women only", or leggings are "very feminine", or "pantyhose are not for men" all are voiced limitations on what people can and should wear, based on the posters only narrow viewpoint. To those people I ask, "how do you feel about women wearing jeans everyday?" Or "what is your opinion of a straight women showing up to a formal event like a wedding in a man's tuxedo? and you were limited to wearing the same garb, instead of a taste full skirted outfit?" "Were you one of those guys that scoffed at women getting the freedom to wear pants out in public not so long ago? One of those men that refused to date a woman that did such?"

JR, you are right, wearing what I like should be relaxing and fun, and most of the time it is. But when it seems that even people who should be in support of me and others is weak, plus dealing with some morons out in public, it becomes stress full (very rarely),

This board came close to closing based on the PMs I got, leaving only the attrium for me. I see constantly here posters saying there hundreds of sites that cater to people like me. BUZZZ wrong!. The only sites I have seen that have freestyle mentioned either are defunct, little action, no input, or fall right into the CD, TV area of life. The atrium activity is very low, and there does not seem to be much progress in the area of getting the idea out there.

I definitely like the idea of a "big tent" for all guys who dare to be guys, but have the drive to in essence make clothing style unisex, just as long as you don't try to pass as a member of the opposite gender.

Since1982 wrote:

Pythos wrote: Pantyhose and tights go along with skirt wearing, male or female.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't pantyhose specifically FOR people without male plumbing, and doesn't the "panty" part of pantyhose have no opening for a male liquid releasing organ to find it's way to a place where it can release liquid into the toilet? I can't see how a front zippered denim or twill skirt could work while standing up with pantyhose or any panty type underwear on. Just my opinion, am I wrong?

I've been wearing skirts publically for 3 years now and have never pulled down/lifted up my clothing to take a leak. I just zip down and do my thing. As, I assume, any male skirt wearer with a front zippered skirt would do.

Please, Please, wake up!
There are manufactures that are making pantyhose with fly's for MEN.
This one ( in German ) http://www.levee.de/woman.html
http://www.comfilon.com/
One of the most popular styles among our customers, these lightweight, footed pantyhose for men will impress you! This flagship sheer style of ours boasts by far the stealthiest fabric we offer (the same as our socks style A149 and similar to our style A599) with a matte appearance and no shine at all. Featuring an enhanced toe (invisibly reinforced but appearing as a sheer toe) and a reinforced brief for good durability, these pantyhose are ideal for active men in warmer weather. The male-comfort front panel with fly opening makes all method of play, indoors and outdoors, comfortable and convenient. No gusset needed. If you want it all, give these a try.

Contains 87% nylon and 13% Lycra® spandex. Brief contains nylon microfiber.

Sizes: M, L, and XL. Available in beige, jet black, and tan.

And by the way, men can also go seated when they "have to go" although they ( me too ) are generally easy going and don't do it, which is also why men's toilets ( and their legs/pants are dirtier. All the unseen spattering, dirties the whole area around the pot. If you wear above the knee skirts, that can be felt too. Don't talk about such things with MEN, they don't listen, theyre "men"

I wear men's slips, which do NOT have a fly opening. So even they have to be "pushed down" so what is the problem with pushing a pantyhose down with it?

Get modern please. And is it your problem? I would think not.

By the way, you must have a long enough front zipper, as even men's pants tend to have zippers that are a bit short, and especially skirts intended for women, only have zippers in front for fitting on/off, they are too short any way. Then I have so often seen men loosen their belts, and pants button and lower their pants, just to go...They may also have had underpants without a fly....But should I need to tell a mature man with a lifetime of living experience this? Perhaps there is not enough interest in the matter, but commenting in a negative way is easy. It may not have been negatively intended but comes thus over as such.

But you don't read this stuff any way, I suppose, çause it isnt manly, talking about the plusses and minusses of skirt wearing in detail, only the verry femme "dare" to do that...

I respect any Man in a skirt, be it a kilted guy or more like what I do, dressing otherwise.
And I am IN NO WAY commenting at all about how other men, however dressed shoudl be dressed or act.

There is much suggestion by a few here, that it would be better for them if the others would leave and form another forum, well that is just what we do not want, to be isolated. It is the very heart of this forum, the diversity, being amongst such a cross section of the population, men of all walks of life, in all soorts of clothing in which I and more feel very comfortable, and there are no men here who feel comfortable in any other forums where their objective is to imitate women.

I am sure that if it was a wish to do so, from the men themselves, there would have been a movement to start a parallel freestyle forum. But I resent being told, or others practically being told to pack up our bags and go. It just seems that some people have problems with others being different to them and don't feel comfortable being in the same room with them. But that is what an open community is all about. Who is going to say that skirt cafe is not an open community, and that at the start of the forum there may have been less a realisation that men would or could also dress anything other than in a kilt, or neutral denim skirt alone? In the mean time we all know better. What a few years ago was unthought of, is now a fact. Not only do men, real men wear skirts but they dare take on public opinion and go skirted in a manner only known up until now as un manly or femme. A few years ago men wearing skirts were unmanly, femme. That brings us back to the meaning of certain words. Men being men, wearing women's clothing ( clothing which is now to most only known as women's clothing) make that clothing unisex, men's wear. Just as women had done with pants. Pants are now unisex. So are skirts. And it is not in our advantage to self limit, rule out any possibilitys for men now. We are the ones who make out what we can, and do wear, not fashion people, not the government. If skirt cafe were to split up, that would be the biggest mistake men in skirts can make. Divide and conquer. If we can't live together in our own community, how can we live out there in the public jungle?

I for one want to live in a mixed community, not be one of the other same men, all much the same, Isolated.

So for those who want a site only for the very manly skirt / kilt wearers, there are sites for you, bravehearts, but there is also isolation there. It should not become so that members are only allowed in three piece suit, black and tie. That is just what most of us men here mention so now and again, how unjust that is, and how we wish to change that narrowmindedness, etc. Splitting the forum up is going back to just that way of thinking. One sort, dressed in one way.

If men want that, sure let THEM go and begin a narrow scope forum.