Why do we do it?

[SkirtDude]

deleted

[crfriend]

I've long known that 'it's just fabric.' However, having said that, I feel that there must be more to it. For instance, women do many other things that I'm sure most of us aren't inclined to do.

That's "social conditioning/engineering" at work -- pure and simple. From very early ages, in fact long before we even begin to develop any sort of notions of sexuality, we're positively bombarded with how we're supposed to look and behave -- to the point where our parents feel the need to go as far as colour-coding us! And because it starts so early in life, we're not likely able to go back and dissect precisely where the pernicious stuff started. Parents (current and recent ones) may be better able to identify this by examining and critiquing their own behaviours toward their children, but in order to do so they need to approach the notion with completely open minds, and those are sometimes rather hard to come by.

What it seems like to me is that we are picking and choosing elements of the female lifestyle.

From my perspective, I'm filching bits of fabric that happen to look good and feel nice; I'm not interested in the least at becoming an "ersatz woman". I came to the conclusion quite some time ago that skirts are an obsolete mode of attire, and "obsolete" is merely a matter of degree -- they're just more obsolete for guys than they are for women. The same thing holds for so-called "fancy" fabrics like velvet and lace; both have deep histories of being worn by men, but are "obsolete" in that role now having been replaced by denim. The same goes for silk; tights, too. So, it's not a question of "lifestyle" for me, it's a question of fashion -- what looks good, what's comfortable, and what can be made to work again from an obsolete wardrobe.

I'm curious as to how we set our boundaries, and if they mean anything. Or maybe why we set them where they are.

I think you'll find that it's an amalgam of our innate personalities, how we were raised, and the "quality" of characters we have around us. I believe that if we were well raised, without a lot of emotional baggage, taught to be curious about the world around us, and surrounded by "thinking types" then our "boundaries" will be quite broader than if we were raised in oppressive, domineering homes by narrow-minded bigots. However, we ultimately do get to call the shots based on our own personalities, and they can be surprisingly free of many of the things that got ground into us during childhood; this may be why most guys that openly wear skirts, and find that it is accepted by a decent slice of society, tend to be of middle age or above -- we've grown confident enough in ourselves that we can largely shunt aside some of the extra baggage that we'd carried for all our lives. And that is incredibily liberating. Not only am I not interested in becomg an ersatz woman, I'm also not interested in emulating the "Marlboro Man"; I am me.

[RichardA]

I wear a Kilt with all the trimmings as I like to well dressed and to be different from main stream, and if you want to leave an impression the Kilt always does it, they may forget your name, but a man in a Kilt is never forgotten.
I wear a skirt as kilts are too expensive to wear to wear everyday, but saying that they are coming down in price due to mass market and foreign imports and of course not being made of tartan, I like the freedom of skirts over shorts or pants (trousers) but I still like underwear I feel naked without them, I also like wearing pantyhose (tights) keeps my legs warmer in the colder months and with shaven legs they feel so smooth.

[Sasquatch]

I've been assessing my behaviors, and had to ask why do I like to wear skirts and tights. I'm not through this process yet, but I really felt that there was some truth in the article I'm going to link.

This is a can o' worms that gets opened about three or four times per year on this forum. A lot of this goes to a "nature vs. nurture" analysis. The linked article implied a cause and effect relationship going back to parenting. Much of the Science of Psychology tries to do this; it gives credibility to the idea that the "Science" is in fact a science and not just the conjecture it appears to be to its critics. I won't argue one way or the other.

I believe, however, that there is at least as much nature in our "behavior" as there is nurture. Many of us have felt that we were different from other males since the age of awareness, i.e., pre-puberty. If the influence of a strong mother and detached father is all it takes for a boy to grow into a man sharing our proclivities, then I would think the country would be overwhelmed with men who display this interest. Obviously there is something physiological, hereditary, biochemical, or developmental that sets us apart. I come from a large family, yet none of my brothers think or perceive in the way I do. Not everything is the fault of our parents!

I would venture that for a man possessing our "nature", the only nurture required to advance the inherent interest is the influence of the greater (commercial?) society that so admires the feminine form and celebrates the adornment of that form. That creates an idealized female image - an image that women pursue and emulate. Clearly there is some inherent factor in our "nature" that drives us to emulate that image as well. I also think that for most of us, that "drive" is not unrelated to our sexual attraction to women. It may be adoration translated into emulation, or it may simply be a response twist to plain old sexual objectification. Do I sexually objectify women? Guilty! Sorry, ladies, I mean you no harm, but I have limited control over that part of my brain. At least I am aware of my "incorrectness"!

I think Bob's learning to dance en pointe, as he suggested, represents the former aspect of my (crackpot?) theory - adoration translated into emulation. Although now impossible for my age and physical condition and for the life I have chosen, I always read Bob's accounts of the dance studio wistfully and a bit enviously.

I suspect that there is a broad range of men who are expressing a degree of female emulation - all the way from the macho dude who wears gold chains and has a pierced ear to the full-time transvestite. The correspondents to this forum seem to fall in a center range from the burly kilted Scot to men who openly wear women's dresses and shoes. I would characterize most of us as "waist-down emulators" - we differ from each other only to the extent of femininity or masculinity in our style choices.

We choose the center of the spectrum for many reasons. A sense of equality, the greater liklihood of social acceptance, or, for some, simply recognizing the absurdity of trying to look like a woman. I would add that the excitement produced by dressing "dangerously", pushing the envelope, stepping outside the norm, or whatever you may call it, the joy of nonconformity is no small factor in our choice.

It seems I'm spending a lot of time considering the behavior, and while I have a comfortable balance with wearing 'comfy' clothes, I still find it important to try to understand the why.

If you are trying to maintain a perception of masculinity (i.e. "straight"), and I'm not saying you should, but if you are, then don't ever, ever use the word "comfy"!!

Please consider the response in the article and reflect upon it, and I apologize if the article, or similar thoughts, have appear on this site before. I don't believe I've seen this topic come up in recent times. It's just that I have this strong desire to express myself to others beyond my wife and it's driving me crazy because I don't understand the drive.

I don't think any of us really understand what compels us, and we could undergo years of expensive psychoanalysis and still not have the answer. I noted the article used the term "confusion" in talking about the fellow's cross-dressing. That term doesn't apply to the men on this forum, I would hope. I'm not confused. I know exactly what I like! It's others who are confused about me! Basically we just need the emotional and intellectual space to be who we are without the weight of unreasoned expectations. My advice? Live an honorable life, love your family and friends, respect your fellow humans, stick to your commitments, and, by all means, pursue happiness!

Sasq

Blow up your TV
Throw away your papers
Move to the country
Build you a home

Plant a little garden
Eat a lot of peaches
Try and find Jesus
on your own!

John Prine Spanish Pipedream

[ChrisM]

I concur with the vast majority of what has been said above, and indeed I doubt that any of us wear skirts for only one reason, or even for only ten reasons. Most of us are far more complex than that.

However, to return to the origin point, I will agree that I do feel, umm, 'softer' when attired in more feminine regalia. I mean that if I am wearing a flowy skirt and soft blouse, I am likely to be in the mood swinging in the lawn swing and watching "chick flicks" rather than rebuilding a V-8 or building a shed.

Now, the question is whether that is cause or effect? Do the 'women's' clothes invoke my 'softer side', or is that when I am in a 'soft' mood I am more likely to don those clothes?

For me, I think it is the latter. I think that I have had these 'soft' moods all my life, but that it is only recently that I have found this outlet for them.

So....

I'm not sure if I have said anything substantial there, and I apologize for not having a better lexicon than "soft" and "feminine" and such terms. But I did just want the original poster to get at least one "you're not alone" in addition to the "Naw, for me it's just the comfort."

Thanks.

Chris

[AMM]

I moved forward by transitioning into playing more the ballerina role in the studio, starting with learning to dance en pointe...

This may be an overly "black-and-white" question, but: how does that work out for you, dancing en pointe?

My understanding is that even for ballerinas, who are expected to be pretty light, en pointe injures the feet to the point that it's a constant war with pain. Bob, you look like you're a good deal heavier than, say, a 120 lb. (50 kG) ballerina, so I would imagine it would be even harder for you.

[Bob]

how does that work out for you...

There's a lot of misinformation about women's bodies vis a vis technical ability to engage in ballet. That misinformation is rampant within the profession as well as outside.

From an engineering point of view, we're talking about "scaling" here. If you build a 5cm high bridge, how does that "scale" when you build a 50m high bridge? Different aspects of the bridge will scale by different amounts. Lengths might scale by 1000, but the weight of girders might scale by 1000^3 because they're three-dimensional. Engineers put a lot of effort into learning how tests on scale models can translate to predications about actual full-size versions. It's not trivial, but it's not intractable either.

Another scale example: notice how Barbie doll dresses are all so stiff, compared to real dresses? It's not because the fabric is extra-stiff, it's because such a small piece is used, it's more stiff compared to its overall size. The end result is that real dresses drape and flow, whereas Barbie's dress kind of just sticks out like it had WAY too much starch.

In ballet, we're talking about scaling the form and function of pointe shoes within the range of about 5'0" 90lb to 6' 170lb or sometimes more. First of all, that is not so extreme. Second, there are engineering rules of thumb that help with that within the pointe shoe industry. Weight goes up faster than length. So larger size pointe shoes need higher-strength shanks, and are usually built as such. Pointe shoe makers, like all clothing manufacturers, have to figure out how to scale their product within a range of sizes.

Pain in pointe training (and ballet in general) is a big topic. Pain by pointe shoes is caused most commonly by abrasion of the shoe against the skin (read: blisters). It can be painful, but it has few long-term consequences. And it's not caused by your weight, it's caused by the need to have the shoe fit very closely to the foot.

Bunions can form in some cases, depending on the build of one's foot and the fit of the shoe. Bunions are more permanent (they need surgery to correct). A few people are prone to bunions, but for most it's not a big issue. Avoiding pointe training too young (before the bones are hardened) is probably the best way to prevent them. An adult man's body is at low risk for bunions.

In any case --- whatever the source --- pain has not stopped zillions of people from studying ballet.

Other than that: the weight of the dancer's body is transferred through the foot. The shoe acts in ways to keep the foot's parts together, thereby making it strong enough to support the weight --- it's a kind of lamination effect. The forces involved are too complex to explain here. But suffice it to say that some forces are compressive, while others tend to stretch bits of your foot apart. Some amount of flexibility in the foot parts is good, whereas too much can be dangerous. Think of the foot as being held together with rubber bands. Some feet are held together with skimpy little rubber bands that stretch easily, whereas others are held together with those bands you get off of broccoli in the supermarket.

The best feet are in the middle --- flexible but not too flexible, and strong (tight) but not too strong, at least not in the same ways. For people with bodies at one extreme or the other, there are ways to condition one's body to move it toward the desired center.

Mens' bodies tend to have tighter construction (connective tissue; rubber bands) than women's bodies. That means that men will have a harder time achieving the flexibility of the foot required for pointe work, but will be less likely to have the kind of foot that arches over easily but is not strong and can result in unexpected catastrophic failure. This tighter foot construction is good, given that weight scales up faster than other dimensions. That means that the greater weight of a man is compensated for by a tighter construction of the foot, at least to first approximation.

So the bottom line is: most bodies of most men and women are within a physical range that allows for pointe training, and ballet training in general. I don't know the limit of how far up the dimension/weight ladder pointe training can scale, but certainly further than my body. I once knew a 5'6" 200lb+ dancer who did very well en pointe.

[tooslowprius]

The other day I worked up the courage to go into my counslar wearing a skirt. I had been thinking about it for ahwile but had kind of held off do to the fact that my couslar is a female. Now in some prvious session's I had kind of hinted around about how I feel about the subject of Men Vs. Women. I had told her that I in no way hate women (for the fact that I am married). I also told her a few spaciffic story's from my past about my wife's reaction when she seen a man in a skirt. The first thing that she told me, witch I had already knew about my wife, was that she was very close minded. She felt, buy what I was telling her, that my wife is one of what she called the dominat female type's that feel's she always has to be in control of the situation. Witch with out saying anything back she hit the nail right on the head!

So I finally got up the courage to wear a skirt into the office the last vist I had with my couslar. On my way out the door my wife told me "I look like an F@#$ing idiot, and that my couslar need's to knock some sense into me!" Her comment's didn't stop me though, I went right on out the door dressed how I was. I did how ever take a pair of pant's with me just in case my couslar didn't like seeing me in a skirt. No I know and understand that counslar can't tell you what's right or what's wrong, and are not suppose to tell you there opinion's or how they feel! When I got there my couslar came out in the lobby to get me I looked at her and told her "If this bother's you I have a pair of pant's I can change into!" She said to me twice that it doesn't bother her at all! Now as we sat down and started talking about me wearing skirt's one of the first thing's she asked as did I wear any onther female clothing? I looked at her and told her no that I felt that heel's, panty's, and bra's are what I considered female only item's. Just like I feel that boxer's, tie's and a few other thing's where men only items. So then we got heavy into why I like wearing skirts? After about an hour desccsing this topic with her here is what I came up with!

1.) I like to wear skirt's for the fact that they "can" be more comfortable than a pair of pants. Now mind you pant's can be just as comfortable!
2.) I feel like by me not being able to wear a skirt freely, that I feel I don't have the same right's as women. That I would just love to be able to go into my closet and if that's what I chose to wear that day that's what I chose! Her reply to that , witch kind of shocked me, was "What's stoping you?". I really didn't know the answer to that. She said "The only thing stoping you is YOU!" Witch makes a lot of sense.
3.) That it is my way of letting down what I refired to as my man guard. Meaning that as men we all have to show that we are just a dominat as the next man, and that we can be just a manly as the other guy. For a guy to put on a skirt and wear it openly he has to step out of his "Comfort Zone". Let's face it guy's men are the type of people that do not like steping out of that "Comfort Zone".
4.) It's my way of letting people know who the real me is! "She then said who is the real YOU!" I didn't know how to answer that question at first. Because of my "man guard thing" I was afraid of telling her what type of man I really was. After talking to her and telling her how I felt about my self she looked at me and said "I could have told you what type of man you where without you telling me." I then said "How?" she replyed "Just from the previous seession's that we have had together and from what we had talked about."

Those are proably the 4 main reason's I choice to wear skirt's every now and then. One of the last thing's she said to me out of the blue was that she felt the say way as I did that men should have the right to wear what they want without some label being put on them! She then said "If you feel as strongly as you do about men haveing the right to wear what they want then you need to start doing it! And rember that you can not control what other people think, or what other people say, The only thing you can control is you!" She also said "To keep in mind that women had to fight for there right to vote, to be able to wear pant's, and to be able to be on the same playing field as men!" Her last comment I couldn't agree with her more! We men sit here and say "I want to be able to wear skirt and not be labeled as something other than what I truely am!", but at the same time we don't want to stand up and fight for that right. I feel the only way we are ever going to break that stero type is by "growing a pair" and wearing a skirt's out "As MEN, not as MEN trying to look like a WOMEN!" and being prepaired to fight for what we feel is right! She also challaged me to wear a skirt more often in public and to make sure that I did it in such a way that I didn't look like I was trying to pass as a female!

[Bri]

Women have just as much of that comfort zone as men do. Talking to my gf a few more times, I found that women go in packs for safety, if someone is say going to a club or going out in something that's very short or shows a lot of skin, she'll ask or tell the other girls in the group to stay close and watch her back. Guys for some reason don't usually do this, but then again, don't have that problem most of the time. Remember, it's guys who're usually giving the women crap and trying to get to them because they show more skin. Men would probably feel it's a really strange place that men would have to protect other men in a situation because they're wearing something that would make them feel and look more vulnerable.

But I've at the same time heard the comment of "If you want to do it, just do it" like it's really not an issue. Women fought for a good 10 or 20 years in the US to be able to wear jeans or whatever they wanted whenever. Some women even remember it very well, and what happened to them if they were seen in jeans by other women, or men. They took a lot of flack from doing it but persisted until they could wear whatever they wanted. If anyone asks you why you're wearing a skirt so much, you might want to tell them this reason. That you're just getting you're right to wear what you lost so long ago and what younger women take for granted today as they don't teach the proper history in school.

[frehocc]

The ultimate answer is something you can say, sing or even drum out with musical instruments (like beer bottles) to anyone that asks you why are you wearing a skirt/kilt/ something out of the ordinary

it goes like this

"Cause thats the way UHUD UHUD I like it UHUD UHUD..."

[gshubert]

I though I understood my reasons for wearing kilts and skirts: comfort, wanting more ways to express myself, and wanting freedom to wear what I liked. But my son, who's 16, is really uncomfortable about my unbifurcated attire. I wasn't aware of his discomfort until I heard about it from someone else. We talked a little about it. He's okay if I wear kilts around the house. I'm okay with putting on jeans when we go out together. I think we're okay, if he's being straight with me (and if he didn't want to talk about it before, can I be sure about what he's saying now?).

Anyway, it takes a bit of wind out of my sails, and giving me an opportunity to re-think why I like to wear skirts, and how far I'm willing to go in "defending my fashion freedom".

[tooslowprius]

I know how all of you guys feel. Half of the reason I don't wear out more is becuase I am on the local fire dept. I would take a really good guess and say that if it got back to my Cheif that I wore skirts that would end my time on the FD. I really don't want to give that up right now. I love being a fire fighter too much right now to give that up. There is really no words to describe how I feel about helping people. The really sad part is I am not sure on how to help my self when it comes to wearing skirts.

[JRMILLER]

TooSlow,
Well, I was in Geneva for their Winter Festival in January or Feb and the entire Fire Dept turned out and marched in their kilts! In the cold!

If they can do that, you could probably wear a Utilikilt or something like that and wouldn't catch too much flack.

[tooslowprius]

TooSlow,
Well, I was in Geneva for their Winter Festival in January or Feb and the entire Fire Dept turned out and marched in their kilts! In the cold!

If they can do that, you could probably wear a Utilikilt or something like that and wouldn't catch too much flack.

Well if the guys on the FD where scottish it might work, but becuase they aren't that I know of I just don't know. I'm not going to stop wearing out in public I just not going to wear as much while I'm on the FD here is a link to are web site margarettatwp.org It will give you a idea of what are dept is like. I don't think they could really say anything about I just think it's like my counslar says that I am just being overly worried about the what if they do part!

[crfriend]

Half of the reason I don't wear out more is becuase I am on the local fire dept. I would take a really good guess and say that if it got back to my Cheif that I wore skirts that would end my time on the FD.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, the Chief should be much more interested in your performance on the force rather than what you wear. If he's more worried about your off-duty attire than your on-line skills and determination then he's less than half the man required to fill his shoes.

By the by, I think I'd put firefighting into the, "It's a good idea to wear trousers for this job" category.

The really sad part is I am not sure on how to help my self when it comes to wearing skirts.

Give it time, and if you're still feeling somewhat insecure work with your counselor on the matter.