Hmm, Long time no post.

[iain]

yes, I heard about that law and ignored it. if the problem is seat belts being too close to the neck, I think you can get seat belt loops which lower the belt against the body so it's away from the neck.

but surely those child seats can't possibly support a 9 year old's head--they're designed for much smaller children. I'm sure we abandoned them probably a good three years ago, possibly more, when our youngest was 6. cars now have airbags front and back, which seem an excellent way to stop a moving mass without snapping the head off.

[Milfmog]

The new laws concerning kids and seatbelts in the UK are explained here

They are about ensuring that small people do not wear large seatbelts that will not protect them and may actually cause injury. A friend of mine, who is a fire-fighter, attended a crash scene a year or so back in which a child had been decapitated by the seatbelt; the rest of the people in the car all survived.

I really don't think this law can sensibly be called political correctness. It could be argued that this is another example of the nanny state, but then all seatbelt / crash helmet laws are.

Have fun,


Ian.

PS Agree about the air bags, I tested a set a year or two back and decided I don't want to do it again but if I am going to drive through a two foot think brick and flint wall I want airbags in the car

[Departed Member]

Great! It contradicts itself! There'll be many more deaths/injuries thanks to this little piece of confusing legislation, I fear!

[crfriend]

[The new laws] are about ensuring that small people do not wear large seatbelts that will not protect them and may actually cause injury. A friend of mine, who is a fire-fighter, attended a crash scene a year or so back in which a child had been decapitated by the seatbelt; the rest of the people in the car all survived.

It all comes back to physics and how semi-rigid bodies (in the analytical sense) respond to various forces applied to them. In general, the wearing of safety-belts is a very good idea; however, there do exist certain limited scenarios where wearing one can prove fatal. The latter case is statistically almost irrelevant compared to the former.

When it comes to how children are restrained within an automobile the data are less clear because of the rapid changes that children undergo in their normal human development; what may be right for one 8 year old may not be applicable to another similarly-aged child. The UK laws do specify a height constraint (and that's a good start) but laws are necessarily broader than might be perfectly desireable. One needs to remember that automobile accidents are inherently violent incidents, and the amount of energy dissipated in them (and into the occupants of the vehicles involved) is frequently close to the "level of tolerance" (read "lethality") that humans can withstand.

As far as the "nanny state" is concerned, everybody pays when someone doesn't take due care in his daily routine. We all pay a "health tax" in some form or other (the UK has it one way, the US another), so it's really incumbent upon each and every one of us to do the best we can -- and that means wearing proper restraints whilst driving.

Put very bluntly, what safety-belts do is to increase the "distance margin" of "walk away from the incident" to "dead" and reduces the incidence of "badly mangled"; the technical term is "hysterisis" and this follows a reasonably predicatable curve.

PS Agree about the air bags, I tested a set a year or two back and decided I don't want to do it again but if I am going to drive through a two foot think brick and flint wall I want airbags in the car

Airbags are a case of legislation gone awry before proper technical and social protections are in place. Personally, I regard airbags as extraneous, if one is wearing safety-belts, and pernicious in that they may provide a false sense of security or, in the worst case, kill folks due to the inflation force.

We should leave the analysis to physisists and not to legislators; further, and from my personal experience, any injury sustained in a crash where an occupant was unrestrained shuold be noted that the occupant sustaining an injury whilst unrestrained was "contributory to his injury through negligence". That'd cut out a lot of the shenanigans that go on here in the US.

Sorry for the rant, and, yes, this is way off topic. I'll shut up now.

[iain]

I'm sorry, I didn't understand much of that. So many words all cancel themselves out.. from it I deduced that belts are generally more safe, and that airbags on their own can kill people?

Surely not? Even in a bouncing and tumbling SUV I would have thought airbags were good, unless you're on the outside of that bouncing mass of bullbars and super-spy styling..

[Departed Member]

All of my son's injuries were actually caused by the airbag, but in fairness, it was because he instinctively threw his arm across in front of his partner as car & (extremely large!) tree met (upside down, and still miraculously landed on its wheels!). SUV? No! A humble "Seat" saloon, no less! The police who attended said they were very, very lucky to escape alive. As for the baby in the back, she was in a proper baby seat, with ne'er a scratch. Thank the spirits, it wasn't mounted on one of these 'booster' seats......................

[crfriend]

I'm sorry, I didn't understand much of that. So many words all cancel themselves out.. from it I deduced that belts are generally more safe, and that airbags on their own can kill people?

Sorry for the rotten wording; that was "my bad". The primary benefit of the safety-belt is to hold the person safely out of the way of the car itself -- folks aren't killed or injured when their car hits something; they're killed or injured when they collide with the car's interior or are ejected from the vehicle entirely and collide with something else. One should let the car's structure do what it was designed to do -- protect the occupants -- and keep the occupants from bouncing around the interior until after everything else has stopped.

Airbags work on the theory that the occupant isn't wearing a safety-belt, and when that's the case, they work surprisingly well -- for certain types of crashes. The orignal specifcations for air-bags in the US were set up to keep a full-grown man from cotacting the steering-wheel or dashboard with any significant velocity (remembering, too, that the steering-wheel and dashboard may be moving rearward themselves form the force of the crash). These things are not the fluffy pillows that one sees in the slow-motion video on adverts; airbags inflate to full pressure in less time than it takes your eyes to close whilst blinking, are pretty close to rock hard just after inflation, and deflate within several dozen milliseconds. The speed at which the rear surface of the bag is moving at deployment time is slightly over 200 miles per hour (about 90 meters/second), if I recall correctly -- this is why "first-generation" ones kill shorter drivers and children who are too close to the bags' anchor point. As an aside, they're not really "air" bags at all; they're inflated by small solid-fuel rocket motors (that's "ordnance", mate) because a pressure vessel containing the suffcient amount of gas required to do the job properly, in the time needed, would be too large and heavy to be practical and be difficult to trigger reliably.

Side-impact bags have benefit even if the occpant is wearing a safety-belt, and are, quite probably a good idea. They're still rather new things, though, and have only recently showing up in cars that the average family can afford. They also were introduced independently of legislation and because of scientific study into crash dynamics and what happens in a passenger compartment during the several dozen milliseconds it takes for a collision to complete.

Surely not? Even in a bouncing and tumbling SUV I would have thought airbags were good, unless you're on the outside of that bouncing mass of bullbars and super-spy styling..

Air-bags would have been of limited use in Trainman's incident; they would have deflated before the rolls had completed. A frontal air-bag would likely have been useless because of the dynamics of the crash; side-impact bags would have been useful during the fraction of a second that they were inflated, but once deflated, would have done nothing.

Fortunately, he and his cohorts made it through. Those boys owe a lot to "old school" belts.

[Milfmog]

Airbags work on the theory that the occupant isn't wearing a safety-belt

While that may have been the requirement in the States for first generation airbags it is not the case in Europe now. Air bags are now an addition to seatbelts. The belt holds the driver / passenger more or less in place and the bag provides a barrier to prevent the bits the belts don't restrain (like the head) from contacting the hard bits of the car, such as the steering wheel or the dash. Front airbags can also prevent the head being thrown as far forward as it would otherwise be and so reduce the severity of neck injuries in a front end impact.

airbags inflate to full pressure in less time than it takes your eyes to close whilst blinking, are pretty close to rock hard just after inflation, and deflate within several dozen milliseconds.

And they're pretty scary if you ever see one set off in error. I once went to see an auto electrician and while I was talking to him his assistant was looking for an earth wire in a Saab using a voltmeter. Unfortunately he shorted out the airbag firing circuits and accidentally deployed the steering wheel bag. The bang was enough to make my ears ring for several hours afterwards and I was not in the car. The bag also filled the car interior with smoke. I really would not have wanted to be sat too close to that when it went off. The lad who'd done it was half in the car under the wheel at the time and fortunate that the bag went over his head or the lateral force on his neck could easily have broken it for him.

Side-impact bags have benefit even if the occupant is wearing a safety-belt, and are, quite probably a good idea. They're still rather new things, though, and have only recently showing up in cars that the average family can afford.

My 15 year old Volvo has them....

They also were introduced independently of legislation

As far as I'm aware there is no legislation in the UK requiring airbags to be fitted. Being the cynic I am I always suspected that their rapid take up by motor manufacturers liking devices that put up the cost of accident repairs, unlike antilock breaks that reduced the number of accidents in the first place and are still not standard in many cheaper models.

Have fun,


Ian.

[trainman]

Interesting posts guys, I hadn't even thought about airbags if I'd had them in the vehicle.

I do have a couple of photo's showing how much damage the vehicle sustained.




It was scary at the time, and even scarier now I have had the chance to look at how the damage had occoured.

[Departed Member]

Bl**dy hell! You're all lucky to have come away from that in one piece!

Now, I do hope your mates are going to come round this weekend and finish the repairs...............? :badlaugh:

That's also why I prefer wearing a skirt when driving - you tend not to take risks/go so fast that you ends up, upside-down, showing tomorrow's washing! :covereyes:

[crfriend]

It was scary at the time, and even scarier now I have had the chance to look at how the damage had occoured.

I don't doubt that for a moment! Thank the gods you all got out relatively unscathed! By the by, how's your head?

That said, the wreckage of the vehicle actually looks quite survivable. The person in most jeopardy would have been the front-seat passenger; everybody else should have been able to walk away with varying degrees of concussion or whiplash, if restrained. It's when one sees a vehicle with its roof smashed down flat into the passenger compartment or whole pieces of the center of the vehicle are missing that one realises absolute disaster has occurred. Your vehicle did well in protecting its occupants.

That's also why I prefer wearing a skirt when driving - you tend not to take risks/go so fast that you ends up, upside-down, showing tomorrow's washing!

That, sir, damn near made me cough up most of a beer! It also gave me the biggest laugh I've had in ages. So, "Take that!" mothers who advise that you always wear clean underwear in case you get into an accident -- think about {b]tomorrow's[/b] washing as well!

[trainman]

I don't doubt that for a moment! Thank the gods you all got out relatively unscathed! By the by, how's your head?

Only sore when I forget to eat, or don't get enough sleep (both pretty common at the moment). Otherwise it's fine now, just some stiffness in the neck muscle.

That said, the wreckage of the vehicle actually looks quite survivable. The person in most jeopardy would have been the front-seat passenger; everybody else should have been able to walk away with varying degrees of concussion or whiplash, if restrained. It's when one sees a vehicle with its roof smashed down flat into the passenger compartment or whole pieces of the center of the vehicle are missing that one realises absolute disaster has occurred. Your vehicle did well in protecting its occupants.

Yes, well the front passenger was the worst case, but I suspect it was the camera getting torn off his neck that caused the whiplash, and not the actual vehicle. The rear passenger walked away with just a little bruising...

[skirtlover]

guys,

if we stop buying them guess who would buy them. yes women - young to old

[Sarongman]

I've only just discovered this thread and seen it to the end. Good God!!! Trainman, how are you now and, did your insurance cough up for full replacement value? I drive a Land Rover Discovery TDI which is now eleven years old and I'm looking, in the near future, to replace it. Yes, to all the Mr Hydes out there gnashing their teeth, with another proper 4WD. I have taken mine over ruts that would have swallowed whole fleets of small cars; soft sand on a beach track south of Bundaberg where to stop would have been to bog; dragged dead cattle to the paddock crematorium(large fire heap) and followed the guide posts for two miles on a road with two and a half feet of (standing) flood water. We Aussies sometimes actually use them for the purpose for which they were built. Though I will allow that some never leave the bitumen. I'm seriously looking at a basic 70 series wagon- no frills, no carpets. Lucerne hay bits stick to carpet like velcro The Nissan 3 litre diesel eats pistons with mostly fatal results when stressed, Land Rover is being killed by new owner, Ford. (They have ripped all the country dealerships out) Toyota's new 70 with the V8 diesel at the moment tops my list.

[trainman]

I've only just discovered this thread and seen it to the end. Good God!!! Trainman, how are you now and, did your insurance cough up for full replacement value?

Yeah, Insurance paid the loan off, and I had enough left to pay my credit card off. Lucky the insurance value was $2000 more than I paid for it!

As for me, well some neck trouble now and then, just use a few stretches I learnt from a physio and it's liveable.

I drive a Land Rover Discovery TDI which is now eleven years old and I'm looking, in the near future, to replace it. Yes, to all the Mr Hydes out there gnashing their teeth, with another proper 4WD

...

We Aussies sometimes actually use them for the purpose for which they were built. Though I will allow that some never leave the bitumen. I'm seriously looking at a basic 70 series wagon- no frills, no carpets. Lucerne hay bits stick to carpet like velcro The Nissan 3 litre diesel eats pistons with mostly fatal results when stressed, Land Rover is being killed by new owner, Ford. (They have ripped all the country dealerships out) Toyota's new 70 with the V8 diesel at the moment tops my list.

The new 70's have amazing engines! One overtook me when I drove to Sydney a couple of months back... Went past me at Warp Speed! I'm not so much a fan of the interior, but it is a very functional vehicle. Hoping to have my New Fairmont Ghia (ok, not brand new, but new to me) paid off in a year or so. Then comes the wait for my insurance rating to come back down. Once that happens, live axle diesel 100-series here I come!

Oh, this is the current ride, leather interior, climate control, cruise control... But only RWD...