Clothing as "product packaging" -- for men

[Big and Bashful]

Sorry guys,
I gave up trying to make sense of his ramblings long ago.

[crfriend]

...I'd say, wear ... what you know looks good on you. Find out what looks good on you,...

Sounds simple, but that simple phrase "looks good on you" covers up a lot of complexity.

First of all, what sort of good "look" do you want? For example, as you point out, men's and women's evening wear strive for very different effects: [...] What "looks good" if you're aiming for one effect looks stupid or terrible if you're aiming for the other -- or if people assume, based on your gender, which effect you must be aiming for. This applies to pretty much all the "looks" that people cultivate.

In a nutshell, this points up several of the pitfalls that we get get to look into (assuming we're paying attention) every time we put on something other than the societally-defined "uniform" -- and it's a bit of a mind-bender!

Personally, I think the key is not to look like something you're not; if what you're wearing drives you into role-play, you're barking up the wrong tree -- and it will show. Your own confidence and mannerisms will betray you.

The point of my original post was that "being desirable" is not a look that men have cultivated, so we don't have any examples of how we might do it, let alone any clothes, fashion magazines, etc., that would explore it.

I believe here that "being desireable" is in the eye of the beholder, and sometimes lines of communication just don't work as we'd like them. I know that in my life I'd like to look "desireable" to my wife, but sometimes the comms just don't cooperate and I'm left wondering whether I've achieved the end or not. I'm not "on the market", so I don't much care if I look "desireable" to other women, but I'm not interested in looking like a slob or a buffoon either. So, how do I look desireable to my wife, and not tittillate the onlookers needlessly? With no examples to inspire (nevermind emulate), I feel very much out on a limb.

[... I]f we (men) try clothes made for women which would give the "look" we want, they won't fit very well, and they will emphasize the wrong things (e.g., our not-so-ample bosoms )

That's a bedevilling problem, and I think that we need something either strikingly new (or shockingly old) as a baseline design. Personally, I like the romantic notion of the poet's shirt teamed with something V-necked layered atop it, and if we can ever get the sewing-room put together into a useful configuration that'll likely be my first project. After all, the "puffy shirt" did enjoy a renaissance recently in spite of getting ridiculed on a US prime-time sit-com. On the other hand; I have an intriguing design for a simple skirt I'd like to do. but need a large amount of space to lay it out on.

[AMM]

I believe here that "being desireable" is in the eye of the beholder, and sometimes lines of communication just don't work as we'd like them. I know that in my life I'd like to look "desireable" to my wife, but sometimes the comms just don't cooperate and I'm left wondering whether I've achieved the end or not.

There's two kinds of "desirable" at work here. One is whether certain people who are important to you find you "hot." This is going to depend very much on you, the "certain people", your relationship, and the moment.

The other is more like what I would call "convention" or language of fashion. I've become aware of this with women's fashion. For instance, a lot of women's evening or dressy clothing that doesn't actually turn me on very much still projects a message of sexiness and desirability. I think it's kind of a positive feedback loop: they dress a certain way because they want to feel a certain way which they associate with dress, so then they act accordingly, which reinforces the association. You could almost get people to think that a burlap sack is sexy if you worked hard enough on it.

I say almost, because you have to have something to work with to start off with. In my original post, I tried to list some of the elements that women's fashion starts off with.

Women's fashion has a highly developled vocabulary of conventions/fashion language elements, especially around seeming desirable to men. (This makes sense, since for much of history, the only real way women could have control over their own lives was through being appealing to men.) Men, on the other hand, have a whole fashion vocabulary around power. But men do not have much of a fashion vocabulary around being appealing to women. The Speedo, and -- well, what else?

I'm not "on the market", so I don't much care if I look "desireable" to other women, but I'm not interested in looking like a slob or a buffoon either. So, how do I look desireable to my wife, and not tittillate the onlookers needlessly?

Not being "on the market" doesn't mean you might not want other women to find you desirable. That's what flirting is all about, for instance. Or that you would not want to look like you're the kind of man women would desire. After all, feeling like a "hot property" is a pleasure and a thrill all by itself, whether there's anyone around to respond to it or not, and whether you want anybody to respond to it or not. Cf. "I Feel Pretty."

And some men, at least, kind of like it if their wife/girlfriend is seen as desirable by other men -- it makes them feel like winners. I imagine there must be at least a few women who feel the same way about their men.

I have an intriguing design for a simple skirt I'd like to do. but need a large amount of space to lay it out on.

I'd be interested to hear about it -- maybe in the Sewing forum?

[Inertia]

The other is more like what I would call "convention" or language of fashion. I've become aware of this with women's fashion. For instance, a lot of women's evening or dressy clothing that doesn't actually turn me on very much still projects a message of sexiness and desirability. I think it's kind of a positive feedback loop: they dress a certain way because they want to feel a certain way which they associate with dress, so then they act accordingly, which reinforces the association. You could almost get people to think that a burlap sack is sexy if you worked hard enough on it.

I say almost, because you have to have something to work with to start off with. In my original post, I tried to list some of the elements that women's fashion starts off with.

Women's fashion has a highly developled vocabulary of conventions/fashion language elements, especially around seeming desirable to men. (This makes sense, since for much of history, the only real way women could have control over their own lives was through being appealing to men.) Men, on the other hand, have a whole fashion vocabulary around power. But men do not have much of a fashion vocabulary around being appealing to women. The Speedo, and -- well, what else?

I think I see what you mean a little better now. Well, there are some who say that power is what appeals to women, about men. Not saying I necessarily espouse this opinion, myself; but there is a huge belief out there that women are turned on most by power, in general, and the personal power of the individual man, in particular. Which is why evening suits are made like a threat-display, a kind of armour, with broad shoulders and generally dark colours, not showing any skin (because that would indicate vulnerability).

To me, as a woman, I suppose there is a kind of power to be seen in a man wearing a kilt or skirt -- because *that* man isn't afraid to wear something unconventional and show his legs -- maybe even bare legs, or bare knees at least. I don't see this as "power" as in "I'm rich and powerful so all the women will fall all over me"; that kind of thing is shallow. It's more like, "I have the power to make my own choices; and I don't have to worry about appearing vulnerable, because I know I am *not* vulnerable". That attitude, however a man's clothes express it, be it with skirts or kilts or poet-shirts or waistcoats or whatever unusual garment a man wears, can be quite a turn-on, for some. It depends on the woman, and how conventional her attitudes are.

If you're just talking about revealing the appealing body-parts to the rest of us females, I still don't think there's any one standard way for men to Dress Appealingly to the Opposite Sex, any more than there really is for women to do it. My figure isn't skinny like a 20-year-old's, so I don't look appealing in skin-tight dresses; but I have nicer legs than some of my contemporaries, so I can wear shorter skirts. My thin young friend with the bony legs and the great bosom looks terrific in a skin-tight floor-length formal dress with a low neckline. I imagine it's the same for men... not every man can wear a speedo, any more than every man can wear a bikini.

Am I understanding your post any better, AMM, or am I still not getting it? I can be pretty dense sometimes!

Cheers,

Inertia

[AMM]

Am I understanding your post any better, AMM, or am I still not getting it?

I'm having a hard time putting my idea into words, I guess.

Where I'm coming from is that I see that women have ways, through their choice of what to wear, to suggest things like flirtatiousness, sexual availability, a wish to be looked at with desire, to have people pay attention to you in a certain way, etc. -- which I've been collecting into the word "desirability." This doesn't generally mean actually wanting sex from anybody, etc.[*], any more than a man generally dresses in a suit because he actually wants to intimidate other people. But it's a big part of the fun of dressing up and going out.

I figure, why shouldn't men be able to express this, too? And how would we go about doing it?

The fashion vocabulary that women use to express this sort of thing doesn't work well on men, so I was hoping there might be people here who want to think about how to create such a vocabulary for men.

[*] This is why whether your SO finds what you wear arousing is secondary in this context.

[Since1982]

I'll tell you one thing, I've had 1,000 % more compliments from females on my skirts etc. than I've ever had when wearing trousers or shorts or pants of any kind. It's like I've rejoined a familiar world. I also never cared how I looked when wearing trousers, my household mirrors could get all broken and I'd never have noticed anything other than a big clean up job. Now, I look at myself in the mirror, turn and spin and do all kinds of things I'd forgotten with pants. NOW, I have respect for how I look again in my life. I like that! I just wish I'd "come out of the proverbial closet" 40 years ago. OR, never gotten INTO trousers in the first place. There was that early time in my life when my mom kept me dressed fem all the time at home. I was the 7th miscarriage and the only one that lived to maturity, the 6 previous ones had lived up to age 6 and were all female. I got all the left over clothes to wear as my parents were poor and couldn't afford to waste those clothes. I was 8 before I ever wore a pair of trousers. I didn't like them but school wouldn't budge on that. Later when my parents were more affluent, in private school I was allowed to wear a plain skirt to class until I entered High school where it wasn't allowed...from then on it was pants for me until 1982.

[Bryan]

There is a garment out there that already does make men desirable to a good number of women and that's a kilt. Certainly from listening to women over the years it has its attractions!

Bryan

[Since1982]

Bryan, that makes sense but, how many women have SEEN a man in a skirt?, Kilts are mainstream but skirts are not, yet. I wear skirts all the time everywhere and get lots of compliments from women. When a man sees it he invariably says, "why the skirt"? I usually answer with something flippant like "why not?" or "I don't have a horse". That one usually leaves them feeling and looking sorta stupid as they really have no idea why pants were invented in the first place. After thinking deeply the commonest retort is "but men are supposed to wear pants/trousers" to which I reply, "and women are "supposed" to wear exactly what, anything they please? Why can't I wear anything I please?" That usually brings on the change the subject question "What's worn under your skirt"? To which they get the old faithful "Nothing's worn, it all works perfectly". That usually leaves them talking to themselves.

[sapphire]

Arggghh..... What's a girl to do?????

I love the way Carl skirts. He looks great. He's got a great sense of style. He's got a sense of what he'd like to develop/make for himself. We've talked about his ideas and I am in agreement with them and think they would be cool.

How much positive feedback am I supposed to provide??? He askes 5-6 times for every outfit whether I like it or not.

[Since1982]

I wish I knew a woman living near me that could give me coordination advice on what to wear with what, what colors are good together, what type skirts are better for my height, shape and age. Since I wore them in the house since 1982 and only out in public since 2005 I really have no "fashion sense" of what someone my age and size should be wearing in skirts. I've always worn only what "felt good". No sense of what "looks good" for me.
That's the only real thing I miss about "Dirty Judy". She sewed great, and had fashion sense for me. Let me overlook the pigsty she kept my house in, and the smoking, the 5 greyhounds and the 6 full sized cockatoos and parrots all in a 10 by 12 foot room by her bed. She only dropped the straw that broke this camels back when she robbed me. I just couldn't let her stay after that, I'm really lonely tho. I've always had a female friend all my life. This is the first period I've ever been alone. Thank Bob and Carl for keeping this site up. keeps some friendships in my life. Most of the people in my town look upon me as an eccentric old man in a skirt. Hindsight 20/20 Foresight Nil.
Anyone know any woman or non gay skirt wearing man (company is company) that would like to move in with an old financially secure eccentric man? I'd consider moving to another state if I had someone to live with.