Out and In (the closet)

[AMM]

Over on the Atrium, there was a posting (end of July) from a fellow who said that he was no longer skirting, as "life is more important than skirting." One thing that he (or someone else on that thread) said was that he only now recognized how much he had hurt people close to him (like his daughter) and how much he might impair his influence in important areas (like his work) in his determination to express his skirting self.

I'm thinking myself about the extent to which I am prepared to push the envelope and risk other things that are important to me.

Currently, I have set the limit that I won't wear a skirt where it's likely to affect my children. This means I don't openly wear skirts in my home town, or in front of them or their mother, or to events where I am likely to run into my kids. (I won't lie about it, but I won't raise the issue, either.)

This means pretty much only in anonymous settings and in Contra dancing circles. (I'd also do it at MIS gatherings -- if there were any in the area.)

In other words, I'm mostly "in the closet." (With the exception of Contra dancing circles, where it's not so unusual to see a man in a skirt.)

My reasoning is that they are having a hard enough time dealing with life, society, and growing up as "wierdos" (the usual term for anyone who doesn't fit in) without adding the burden of having a dad that is publicly wierd. Also, it's hard enough to figure out what it means to be a man (they're both teens); having their closest male role model dressing "like a woman" can only make it harder.

Work would also be a "hard limit" for me -- I feel like I'm exposing a vulnerable side of myself when I skirt, and, for me, work is not a place for exposing myself. I don't think I'd get fired if my co-workers found out, but it might be a problem if I were looking for another job if prospective employers googling miy name kept finding articles by me about wearing a skirt.

I'm thinking right now that once they are both off at college, I can "come out." My theory is that once they're away from home, my notoriety will have less effect on their relations with people they see every day.

I'd probably start with my Quaker meeting, as Friends have been historically less inclined to dismiss people out of hand who live in non-standard ways.

But this is 5 years off, and I don't know how I'll feel then. I might find other reasons/excuses to stay in the closet.

-- AMM

[Since1982]

That would be a sore loss to the world if you went back in the closet because of what I believe might have originated with a "chain puller" that made a lot of enemies at several sites with his outrageous comments. I'm going to pm you and ask if it was a certain person I'll name in the pm. I don't think he's married at all. He referred to a member of IMFF as "wrong and sick" which caused a huge rift over there.

[binx]

You're not in the closet if you go (anonymous) about in public settings where you won't encounter these people: vacations, a trip into the city, shopping at remote locations. Talk to them to see if it really bothers them. If you can find a connection in your ancestry, it could help as well.

binx

[AMM]

I guess I'm not very clear in my posting, if two readers thought I was getting scared back into the closet. I'm as out of the closet as I've ever been in my life.

No, there aren't any "these people" I need to talk to. Nor was the Atrium article a "chain puller."

It's just that, on the one hand, I have the desire to go skirted more often, to come "out of the closet" all the way. It would be nice to feel that it is nothing but my fear that holds me back. And I know that if I ask for advice here at the Cafe, I'll receive nothing but encouragement to do so.

But there is more to life that skirt-wearing. If coming out of the closet impacts people and things I care about, I have to weigh the cost of coming out against the cost of hiding in the closet. Keeping in mind that once you come out, you can't go back in.

I'm fairly certain that if I walked around town in a skirt on a regular basis, my kids would get teased about it (and there's no such thing as "friendly teasing" at their age) and there would be parents who would not want their kids to have anything to do with mine. And I could forget about having much influence on most people -- they'd be polite, but anything I said would be tainted by my "wierdness."

The point of my original posting was that I have considered the costs, and decided that this particular level of "out-ness" is a reasonable trade-off, for now. My kids don't have to face being taunted as the "wierdo kids with the fairy dad" or of being ostracized by other families in town. (Given what they've already gone through, I don't think I'm being paranoid.) They don't have to deal with their own feelings about my skirt-wearing at a very vulnerable time in their lives.

And I still have my venues where I can express this side of myself.

I don't see much discussion of such trade-offs here in the Cafe.

Is it that the only people who post here are in situations where the cost of skirting isn't all that high? (For example, I don't see many posters talking about having school-age children.) Or are we getting into a kind of group-think here, where we play up the value of skirt-wearing and play down the costs?

-- AMM

[Bob]

AMM, I hear you there. Need for consistency with internal self-image must always be weighed against external factors. No, I don't think we discuss it enough either; I think a lot of us are more hesitant to express our doubts or painfully bad experiences. But it's also true that a lot of people are less up-tight about skirts for men than we originally fear.

[Steven]

Your right about being out of the closet and never being able to go bak in, unless you move somewhere that nobody knows so you can put everything back in the closet.

Currently it doesn't matter if I disobey or obey the rules of wearing stereotypical attire, I'll still be treated with disrespect.

Steven

[Skirt Chaser]

I think Steven's no going back point is important to keep in mind. Out isn't a goal in itself for many, it is what happens when a man feels like there is more to gain than lose by being public. I think the discussion you bring up is a vital concern that does need to be weighed very carefully. While we know men should be able to dress as they please there are reasons why this is dicey so being realistic is important.

While I can't help make your decision I will add my input as the child of goofy parents. My mother and father are not shy people when it comes to clothes and think nothing of wearing costumes (or even tamer stuff like cowboy getup just because my dad loves the look on himself). I learned a lot growing up that way including that embarrassment is not fatal. When you show your teens that peer pressure is not a good basis for decision making they have gained from your clothing choices. Still, high school can be rough and teasing can escalate despite rules to decrease bullying so there is a lot to consider.

Talking with the kids and getting their opinion is good. Since it sounds like you are separated, skirting at home during visitations would be reasonable. That rules out worries about what their friends think. In time if they become supportive they could hold their own at school such as Milfmog's son did when he stood up to a classmate. I think knowing about your skirts is an opportunity for your children to grow.

Quiet Mouse

[WSmac]

I like this topic...

The first skirt I wore in public was a medium-heavy weight skirt I found at a Macy's store in Monterey, California.
I was driving in the winter from California to Missouri on a mission of mercy for a family member, so it was - drive until I was tired, pull over and sleep a bit, drive until I was tired, pull over...

To help keep myself awake, I wore the skirt to keep my legs warm and kept the heater off in my truck. This way, I was just comfortable enough not to chill too much, yet not get too warm and drowsy.

Since I wore the skirt at night when it was cold, I kept it on when I got out to gas up the truck. Only one person saw me and he never made a comment... he was only looking for a free handout.

No one I knew, knew that I wore that skirt at all.

From there I went to the UK, Macabi, Mountain Kilt, a homemade wrapskirt, Stillwater kilt, and sarongs.

So far, these skirts have not seemed to be a problem around the logging town I live in, nor the other towns I visit.

My teenage daughter has been gradually introduced to my skirts (she and her mom bought me the UK for Father's Day).

I did keep from wearing any skirts to her school even after she said it was no problem for her.
I finally started wearing the UK to her school and continued around town.
She has no problem with my other skirts when worn at home.

I agree that there's a certain level of comfort/discomfort when it comes to how my choices will impact my child's life.
But, I also want to teach her that people need to feel free to express who they are and what they like as long as they respect the rights of others.

In that vein, I will gradually work my skirt collection out into my public life more and more.
I'll just keep asking my daughter if it would bother her if I wore one of my other skirts to her school and abide by her wishes. But around town (or at the other towns), I'll wear my skirts as I see fit. And if she's with me, she'll get to see how a person exercises their freedom, and disregards the ignorance of others.

Wearing a skirt is easy to do at work. Even FUN! (it's a Catholic Hospital with Sisters and everything! ).
Since my work uniform is my choice and I choose scrubs so my skirt wearing to work is not a problem.

Now, if I want to start wearing a white nurse's skirt or dress....

[AMM]

... When you show your teens that peer pressure is not a good basis for decision making they have gained from your clothing choices.

...


In time if they become supportive they could hold their own at school such as Milfmog's son did when he stood up to a classmate. I think knowing about your skirts is an opportunity for your children to grow.

Quiet Mouse

I appreciate what you are saying. If my kids were in a better position in life, I would consider it.

I don't want to go into the details of our situation, but my kids are dealing with a lot of issues, above and beyond their parents' issues. They seem to be drowning in issues. When you are not sure whether your kids are going to sink or swim in their growing up, you get reluctant to hang any more ballast around their waists.

-- AMM

[hiker]

hmmm - I think there are a couple of things to be aware when deciding when and where to wear skirts. First my background, my children are grown and in medical school/grad school/working, my wife actively supports skirt wearing, I am a tenured university professor. There is another professor on our campus who wears skirts everyday to work - I wear them (and kilts) weekends and evenings but not usually to meetings or class (but occasionally I do).

I my case one child doesn't mind kilts but politely struggles with skirts - I just wear kilts when I visit him. I don't want to have the skirt issue get between us. He was the child who was in the popular group etc and is still uncomfortable with anything out of the mainstream (my wife an I wonder how it is he is related to us). My other children don't care and live in communities where I won't be the only man that people will see in a skirt - so from a family side I don't have much a battle to fight, but if I did I would certainly give into them. I think this is particularly important when children are in junior high and high school, life is hard for them and you want to keep the communication channels open and focused on them and their behavior - not you and your behavior.

On the work side - even though I am tenured and successful the choice to wear clothing beyond the norm, limits my ability to become the dean, department chair, etc. I realized this before I started and accepted it since my life is is primarily being a speaker and author and I love to travel. Being in a university management position would interfere with my goals hence I could accept the minor limits on my career. But others may not feel the same way. In this way skirt wearing is regarded as being a little eccentric and not threatening to the community in which I work. And being regarded as eccentric works to support my overall goals.

Based on this I think the two big issues are

1) respect for your family (particularly school age children) and making sure you are not a hindrance to their success. your family's success is as important (or more so) as your success.

2) recognizing that behavior outside of a very narrow box will have consequences in your community and work as regards positions available and promotions. Eccentricity may not be punished but it won't likely be rewarded either.

hiker