Barometer

[Grok]

In some ways, a higher pricetag for the men's version is good. Nearly everything for men gets adopted, co-opted, then reclassified by/for women, then men stop wearing them. Paying a premium keeps it as a men's item, at least for a bit longer. Also keeps it a niche item that less men try out, so it's a double edged sword...

A triple edge sword. Why haven't women completely taken over kilting? I think one reason is that it is uncommon. Here in the Seattle area, utility kilts are quite thin on the ground, and traditional kilts are rarely seen. On the other hand, trousers have been ubiquitous for men, and not surprisingly that is also now the case for women.

For a skirt designed for men, the best case scenario is that the item becomes socially acceptable, but remains uncommon.

[Mouse]

......Here in the Seattle area, utility kilts are quite thin on the ground, and traditional kilts are rarely seen.....

That's interesting, since Utilikilt is based in Seattle and I always had this impression of a band of happy American men, wearing kilts and chopping wood, all lived around Seattle area, probably based on the Utilikilt marketing material....

[STEVIE]

......Here in the Seattle area, utility kilts are quite thin on the ground, and traditional kilts are rarely seen.....

That's interesting, since Utilikilt is based in Seattle and I always had this impression of a band of happy American men, wearing kilts and chopping wood, all lived around Seattle area, probably based on the Utilikilt marketing material....

Ah the mystical powers of the Gods of Advert!

[Grok]

During the next 10-20 years what level of acceptance might we hope for? I am trying to be optimistic with this post.

Perhaps a skirted rig might gain the level of acceptance that the Kilt had when I was growing up, here in the USA. It was almost the only skirted rig that had any acceptance at all, but was rarely seen. It was definitely not conventional.

I think what acceptance existed was due to Scots arriving early in the country, and in considerable numbers.

[Barleymower]

During the next 10-20 years what level of acceptance might we hope for? I am trying to be optimistic with this post.

Perhaps a skirted rig might gain the level of acceptance that the Kilt had when I was growing up, here in the USA. It was almost the only skirted rig that had any acceptance at all, but was rarely seen. It was definitely not conventional.

I think what acceptance existed was due to Scots arriving early in the country, and in considerable numbers.

That was the purpose of the thread. It's very hard to guage. I thought if skirts for men open up it may show up on the likes of eBay. Even if its still kilts and fancy dress its still movement.

I'm fairly new to this but I can see there have attempts to coax men out of their man boxes in the past but this has been thwarted but those who want to push them back into their little corners. Take the Trans movement. They got some real momentum but it was completely derailed. I suspect it was malevolent forces encouraged them to compete with 'natural' females. They were stupid enough to take the bait. It only took one or two, that was all that was needed and suddenly you have something that everyone can join forces against. I think the same thing happened with the Woke movement. There's actually nothing wrong with being woke. Seeing the world with open eyes. Again malevolent forces moved in and it became a way to mock people.

How long will it take? It could happen quickly but those same malevolent will have to see it in their interests. Or as I suspect, it may never happen.
Does it really matter? It's fun being a maverick!

[crfriend]

That was the purpose of the thread. It's very hard to guage. I thought if skirts for men open up it may show up on the likes of eBay. Even if its still kilts and fancy dress its still movement.

My original thoughts on the matter mainly put the site of experimentation well up into the semi- and formal categories so there's be some useful starting point. If you start with garbage one is going to wind up with garbage. Full stop. This is in addition to the societal headwinds we get.

What we're in the grip of now -- at least those of unfortunate enough to live in backwards places -- is the fascist right-wing problem. That problem may be insolvable without considerable strife and possibly overt violence (because if one side is willing to use it, both must use it).

How long will it take? It could happen quickly but those same malevolent will have to see it in their interests. Or as I suspect, it may never happen.
Does it really matter? It's fun being a maverick!

The key in getting this to happen is to break the neck and back of the far-right and send the reactionaries on a full-scale rout. Nothing else will do; this problem will not die until it is staked through the heart and salt sewed up in its mouth.

[Jim]

That problem may be insolvable without considerable strife and possibly overt violence (because if one side is willing to use it, both must use it).

Ghandi showed that resistance to oppression can be non-violent and successful. The US civil rights movement was also mostly non-violent. Resistance entails suffering, whether violent or non-violent. I think non-violence will be more effective; the oppressors have greater firepower. Not resisting also produces suffering.

[crfriend]

Ghandi showed that resistance to oppression can be non-violent and successful. The US civil rights movement was also mostly non-violent. Resistance entails suffering, whether violent or non-violent. I think non-violence will be more effective; the oppressors have greater firepower. Not resisting also produces suffering.

Jim points up the fundamental quandary concerning whether to resist or not, but also hints that non-resistance merely perpetuates suffering where resistance may shorten it. Therefore, it becomes a decision of how much suffering one is willing to undergo to obtain a meaningful end result.

Under normal circumstances and situations I choose non-violence if possible. If however, the opposing side shows its hand that violence will be used, then I regard it as largely inevitable that it will be at some point in time unless a deterrent to its use is established (which becomes an externality). Note that as history has proved, violence will be -- and has been -- used in the past against non-violent resistance -- in which it comes down to the vagaries of history which party is the victor and which is the oppressor.

It's also important to note here that we are dealing with forces vastly more powerful than the right to simply wear what we want; this cuts to the core of what it means to be human. Encouragingly, history seems to largely be on the side of freer societies as pointed up in the not-too-distant past where the Thousand Year Reich lasted but seven years. (The current regimes in the USA and Russia have already lasted longer.)

How important is the right for a man to put both legs down one pipe instead of two compare to two shooting wars (Russia/Ukraine and USA/Venezuela) and an ongoing genocide (Israel/Gaza)? I'd posit not very in the grand scheme of things.

[Grok]

I thought if skirts for men open up it may show up on the likes of eBay. Even if its still kilts and fancy dress its still movement.

Or as I suspect, it may never happen.

Does it really matter? It's fun being a maverick!

"...It's fun being a maverick!...." Agreed!

If any skirted rigs gain traction with the Mainstream, I suspect that the selection will be very limited. The few designs that might gain traction might amount to Better Than Nothing.

However....

Mavericks can have a much more interesting time. We see this in various images posted by members.

Its possible for tiny numbers of enthusiasts to experiment far beyond the Mainstream. Consider the Brotherhood of the Hoop.

[Dust]

Non-violent is the only way to create real, lasting change.

Violence tends to escalate. One small act of violence is countered by a larger one, which is countered by an even larger one. Each side may see their reactions as proportional, but they rarely are in reality, and never are in the eyes of the other side.

To make matters worse, we now have some people equating words with actual violence. Words are not violent, they are words. But teaching people that words are violence justifies them in starting real violence.

We have reached a point where staying out of a conflict (for any reason) is being treated by one side as violence and used to justify actual violence. This is insane. Those who are attacked for trying to stay out of the fight, are not going to magically come around to the side who attacked them. If anything, you attack folks who you didn't know where sympathetic to your cause and lose an ally.

Forcibly putting the opposition in their place may feel good, or even give you the upper hand short term, but will never win hearts and minds.

[Faldaguy]

Well said Dust. You might have thought humans would have learned at an early age that you don't change hearts and minds with violence; you may get some reluctant compliance for a period out of fear, but you have not removed the tension. Sadly, those employing power on scale know damn well it won't change minds, and they do not care about that -- they only wish to confuse and convince their cannon fodder enough to sacrifice their own lives in support of manufactured rationales for another profitable war and extraction of, usually non-renewable resources (oil industry????) etc. because war is very profitable. With that said, I am seeing a galactic shift in this thread that perhaps needs to be moved to "Off Topic" or back to data validity questions!

[Mouse]

........With that said, I am seeing a galactic shift in this thread that perhaps needs to be moved to "Off Topic" or back to data validity questions!

Mean while, back on ebay, the number of "mens skirts" has dropped by 100 to 2,100, but the number of "mens kilts" is still at 17,000

In making this post, I knew I had to get the search term correct and then I thought about the apostrophe, had BM used one in his search? Looking back, he hadn't, so I had to see if the using one did make a difference and what do you know but yes, "men's skirts" brings back a number of 5,300 over twice as many by using correct punctuation.

It is not all good news though, add an apostrophe to "men's kilts" only gets you 12,000 returned.

So for this thread to work and be a measure, we have to agree on the exact search term to be used, which in this case has to be "mens skirts" no apostrophe. On the other hand, maybe we are missing out on all those ebay sellers of men's skirts who use correct grammar in their listings?