Up Helly Aa and tunics

[skirted84]

Was watching a news item on Tuesday about the annual Shetland festival celebrating their history of Vikings and fire. Traditionally men only though women included for first time this year after pressure for years, but the men invariably wearing tunics reflecting the dress of the times, or basically dresses. Pretty short in most cases, older pics show them mostly knee length with boots.

[STEVIE]

reflecting the dress of the times, or basically dresses.

Aye S84,
In the modern context, telling these guys that they were wearing "dresses" would be extremely brave of you, their reactions would be interesting.
You'd likely get a very quick lesson as to how effective a weapon that battle axe is. You'd certainly remember it for the rest of your life.
This is the first time that women have played a role in the festival and their "tunics" appear quite different from the men's too.
Historically though I do believe there were female Viking warriors and even Chieftains.
Steve.

[Ralph]

Looking at illustrations of societies prior to the invention of trousers - roughly pre-14th century, you can usually tell the difference between a men's tunic and a woman's dress - the latter typically has longer hemlines, a wider sweep of the skirt, a bodice more fitted to the body shape (vs. the shapeless rectangular tunic of the men held in place with a belt).

But lately I've been watching the television series "The Chosen", which takes place in 1st Century Palestine (Judea). Again, for the most part the Roman togas, lower-class men's tunics, and women's dresses all have a different appearance. But one scene took place at night, when a visitor woke the disciples up. Then men were wearing tunics that for all the world looked like a woman's short-sleeved nightgown.

Here's a good example. The women's dresses have a higher neckline, a longer hem, and (slightly) longer, looser sleeves whereas the men's tunics are more square with a V-neck opening.


But perhaps I'm reading more into it than the garment itself suggests, because I can see the body shapes and faces with each garment. If those same garments were on identical mannequins, would it be so obvious which are for men and which are for women?

[Coder]

But lately I've been watching the television series "The Chosen", which takes place in 1st Century Palestine (Judea). Again, for the most part the Roman togas, lower-class men's tunics, and women's dresses all have a different appearance. But one scene took place at night, when a visitor woke the disciples up. Then men were wearing tunics that for all the world looked like a woman's short-sleeved nightgown.

I've been wondering how accurately they portray clothing during that time as well. I think in terms of how the've been styled, I'd be happy with the men's garments on the show.

[Ralph]

Just for fun I asked the all-knowing ChatGPT for the answer from an artificial intelligence point of view. Its answer:

Yes, there was a distinction between men's and women's tunics in 1st century Judea, particularly among the lower classes. Men's tunics were usually shorter, reaching just above the knee, while women's tunics were longer, often reaching the ankles. The tunics were also cut differently, with women's tunics having a more fitted waist and wider sleeves. In terms of material and decoration, both men and women's tunics were generally made of simple, plain fabric, although women's tunics might have had more elaborate embellishments such as embroidery.

Rather matches my own observations. As for accuracy, we do have some (limited) paintings and mummified remains giving examples of first-century clothing, but just enough to give some hints without any real certainty.

[rivegauche]

I don't claim detailed knowledge of Shetland traditions but I understand that Up Helly Aa is a fairly recent innovation - it doesn't have an unbroken history going back to the Vikings. I also understand that it was only the Lerwick guisers who had banned women until now - the event happens all over Shetland. I am happy for any Shetlanders to overrule me.

[Myopic Bookworm]

The women's dresses have a higher neckline, a longer hem, and (slightly) longer, looser sleeves whereas the men's tunics are more square with a V-neck opening.
If those same garments were on identical mannequins, would it be so obvious which are for men and which are for women?

The height of the belt at the waist is also distinctive: women have higher waists, and this is marked by the clothing.

(There's something lurking behind waistlines, to do with the relative status of men vs. women and youths: as a student I used to have a pseudo naval jacket, and noticed then that cropped jackets for male personnel were often a mark of junior/inferior status, just as cropped upper garments among cilivilans are a mark of feminine (i.e. junior/inferior) status; also seen in styles adopted by gay men.)

[crfriend]

(There's something lurking behind waistlines, to do with the relative status of men vs. women and youths: as a student I used to have a pseudo naval jacket, and noticed then that cropped jackets for male personnel were often a mark of junior/inferior status, just as cropped upper garments among cilivilans are a mark of feminine (i.e. junior/inferior) status; also seen in styles adopted by gay men.)

Then explain the popularity of the "Ike jacket" made famous by one general Dwight D. Eisenhower. Also "bomber jackets". Naval traditions run on different lines.

[Ron]

isn't a modern day thobe a evolution of the ancient tunic ?

[Barleymower]

(There's something lurking behind waistlines, to do with the relative status of men vs. women and youths: as a student I used to have a pseudo naval jacket, and noticed then that cropped jackets for male personnel were often a mark of junior/inferior status, just as cropped upper garments among cilivilans are a mark of feminine (i.e. junior/inferior) status; also seen in styles adopted by gay men.)

Then explain the popularity of the "Ike jacket" made famous by one general Dwight D. Eisenhower. Also "bomber jackets". Naval traditions run on different lines.

I have no in depth knowledge on this but I thought women's tops were cropped shorter to reveal more of the skirt and elongate the legs?
There are mens versions of cropped tops. The waistcoat for example and the tank top

[Modoc]

reflecting the dress of the times, or basically dresses.

Aye S84,
In the modern context, telling these guys that they were wearing "dresses" would be extremely brave of you, their reactions would be interesting.
You'd likely get a very quick lesson as to how effective a weapon that battle axe is. You'd certainly remember it for the rest of your life.
Steve.

I know that some men cling to the historical names of their garments for dear life so as not to be included in what they think is the feminized group of men who wear skirts and dresses. I never push the issue when it comes up because It is really unimportant, but at the end of the day, a dress is a dress, and a skirt is a skirt.

[STEVIE]

Yes quite right Modoc but society has a long way to go before that's accepted.
In the Viking period the tunic would have been a very male garment and not considered or actually allowed to women.
Steve.

[greenboots]

Yes quite right Modoc but society has a long way to go before that's accepted.
In the Viking period the tunic would have been a very male garment and not considered or actually allowed to women.
Steve.

Short garments were exclusively male until 1920s. Prior to that, women almost exclusively in most of the world would have worn ankle-length clothing, whether one pipe or two.