Men in skirts around the world - Straw Poll

[Barleymower]

I was not expecting Belgium to be bias. Truly sorry to hear that.
Maybe have a trip to London? Nobody seems to mind at all. Look me me up if you do.

[Grok]

I live in Seattle. Other than utility kilts, I have seen skirted outfits on men maybe three/four times over the last three decades.

One was a man that I believe was an Arab, wearing the traditional robe-I assume he was a visitor, so I'm not sure he counts.

Another was a man wearing a skirt at a contra dance. Another was man wearing something like a pencil skirt.

Actually, Utility kilts are seldom seen. So these few men stand out.

(BTW, I suspect that this rarity is one reason why women haven't taken over kilting).

[Freedomforall]

I live in Seattle. Other than utility kilts, I have seen skirted outfits on men maybe three/four times over the last three decades.

One was a man that I believe was an Arab, wearing the traditional robe-I assume he was a visitor, so I'm not sure he counts.

Another was a man wearing a skirt at a contra dance. Another was man wearing something like a pencil skirt.

Actually, Utility kilts are seldom seen. So these few men stand out.

(BTW, I suspect that this rarity is one reason why women haven't taken over kilting).

I was just in Gig Harbor last week visiting relatives. I was out in skirts and dresses.

[Freedomforall]

How prevalent are men in skirts in your area?
How are men in skirts where you live treated?
Where is the best place in the world to live for a man in skirt?

2. I have only had one glare that I can recall, and two guys trying to take the p!55 and several positive comments from women.
Comments from other guys (from my experience) seem to be p!55 taking or the underwear question, while women have always been overwhelmingly positive in their comments. My wife has told me that there has been no shortage of women checking me out, you could say, and that apparently happens even when I'm not kilted/skirted.

What is a p!55?

[ScotL]

Lingo

Change the ! For an I

Change the 5 for an S

[gender free universe]

We all know why. Carl Fluegel described it already in 1930 in detail in his Psychology of clothing. He coined the term "Great Masculine Renunciation".

You've mentioned this before - I found a scanned copy here:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dl ... 7/mode/2up

but I'm curious - how influential was this work, and is it worth reading?

I have only read those excerpts from Carl Fluegel, which several specialist publications on fashion history refer to. In fact, all the important social psychological experts on fashion mention him.
Bancroft, A. (2012) Fashion and Psychoanalysis. London. I.B. Taurus &Co Ltd. London. pp. 8-9.
Laver, J. (2002). Costume and Fashion - A Concise History.
London: Thames & Hudson Ltd. pp. 80-81.
Ross, R. (2008). Clothing - A global History. Cambridge:
Polity Press. S. 35-37

[Coder]

We all know why. Carl Fluegel described it already in 1930 in detail in his Psychology of clothing. He coined the term "Great Masculine Renunciation".

You've mentioned this before - I found a scanned copy here:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dl ... 7/mode/2up

but I'm curious - how influential was this work, and is it worth reading?

I have only read those excerpts from Carl Fluegel, which several specialist publications on fashion history refer to. In fact, all the important social psychological experts on fashion mention him.
Bancroft, A. (2012) Fashion and Psychoanalysis. London. I.B. Taurus &Co Ltd. London. pp. 8-9.
Laver, J. (2002). Costume and Fashion - A Concise History.
London: Thames & Hudson Ltd. pp. 80-81.
Ross, R. (2008). Clothing - A global History. Cambridge:
Polity Press. S. 35-37

Gotcha. I made it through the first chapter, he's got some, erm, what I as a non-philosopher/psychologist would call "freudian ideas" about a lot of stuff, including clothing. I'll probably read the rest before I make an overall judgement.

[gender free universe]

Hold on. I think it's worth it, even though the man was a psychoanalyst and some Freudian theories are considered outdated, especially by the standards of today's cognitive psychology. I hope you will be able to confirm his core statements to be valid.

[crfriend]

Hold on. I think it's worth it, even though the man was a psychoanalyst and some Freudian theories are considered outdated, especially by the standards of today's cognitive psychology. I hope you will be able to confirm his core statements to be valid.

I'm about halfway through chapter IV, and discarding the deeply Freudian stuff I believe the core premise thus far is valid. I'll actually have to finish it to be sure.

[crfriend]

As I dig deeper into The Psychology of Clothing (I'm on page 101 now) it's becoming very, very clear that it's a work of its time (this is good and bad) and is not representative much of today's world. In short, the thing is dated -- still useful, but rather "stale" in modern context especially given that we've largely moved on From Freud's sex-driven world.

I'll hold on passing final judgment until I've finished it, but a lot of the interpretation just does not apply to the modern world.

[crfriend]

Well, on page 119 (or thereabouts) Fluegel damns every man who dares to don a skirt to a future of being homosexual:

Eonism. — This last consideration has brought us to the phenomena of transvestitism, or Eonism, as Havelock Ellis has recently called it, after the Chevalier d’Eon de Beaumont [0], a striking eighteenth-century example of this anomaly. As is well known, a certain proportion of individuals of both sexes desire to wear (and often do wear) the full or partial costume of the opposite sex. This desire (as is also well known) has an intimate relation to homosexuality, but the relation is not in every case a simple one; complete Eonism, for instance, does not necessarily coincide with active homosexuality, or even with a -tendency towards the physical characteristics of the opposite sex. Hercules himself, as the myth tells us, spent some time dressed as a woman, and — as the writer has been informed by a most reliable authority — a well-known modem athlete of Herculean build has done the same. This is a tendency of much psychological interest and is indeed worthy of a volume to itself.

Thanks, pal. Now we know how that got its start.

On page 150, though, he touches on the influences of architecture on fashion, which is something I'd been theorising on independently as an attempt to explain some of the banality of modern "fashion" especially in the realm of "leggings" [1], shredded denim, and other hyper-casual/grunge looks and came under some fire for comparing it to the "Brutalist" school of architecture [2]. At that juncture, I wondered if Fluegel had somehow glimpsed the future, and if he had I'd be curious as to how disgusted he might have been.

I still haven't quite finished it, but would recommend a read of it so long as most of the Freudian stuff can be filtered out ("Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!") and the noise on homosexuality toned down (as it has since been widely proved false). It is definitely a piece of its time.


[0] No doubt the patron saint of the Beaumont Society.
[1] The very worst of which leave no doubt in the observer's mind of the wearer's personal grooming choices.
[2] Some of which can actually be quite good, e.g. Boston City Hall

[phathack]

The skirt cafe spans the globe, there's enough knowledge amongst the cafe patrons to answer this question.

How prevalent are men in skirts in your area?

There's a couple of forum members in the greater Metro area.
With close to 7 million people in the greater DFW area it depends on where you go.
I have been to a couple of events and seen men in kilts at various events.
This was not at the Irish Fest or Highland Games where 80% of the men are wearing Kilts.

The only place I have seen other guys in a skirt was in the downtown Dallas area.

How are men in skirts where you live treated?

I've gone to my local street festival wearing a skirt and no one said a thing.
I run errands all day long all over the metro area wearing a skirt and no one has said a thing about it.
I have been on vacation all over a 6 state area and have never had anyone say a thing about my skirt.

I did have a neighbor comment about the skit I was wearing at the 4th of July block party because it was a Blue Skirt with Red Stripe and White Stars on it and I had a top on that was White with Red Stripes. They asked where I go it and I told them Amazon and Venus.com

Where is the best place in the world to live for a man in skirt?

No real Idea

[6ft3Aussie]

What is a p!55?

Colloquialism meaning "To make a joke of" "Urinate" or otherwise plain take the mickey.

I'm sure you get that. I'm trying to not actually use the word I'm meaning while trying to not use underhanded language.

As my father used to say, the language you use shows who you really are, or words to that effect.

[Barleymower]

Well, on page 119 (or thereabouts) Fluegel damns every man who dares to don a skirt to a future of being homosexual:

Eonism. — This last consideration has brought us to the phenomena of transvestitism, or Eonism, as Havelock Ellis has recently called it, after the Chevalier d’Eon de Beaumont [0], a striking eighteenth-century example of this anomaly. As is well known, a certain proportion of individuals of both sexes desire to wear (and often do wear) the full or partial costume of the opposite sex. This desire (as is also well known) has an intimate relation to homosexuality, but the relation is not in every case a simple one; complete Eonism, for instance, does not necessarily coincide with active homosexuality, or even with a -tendency towards the physical characteristics of the opposite sex. Hercules himself, as the myth tells us, spent some time dressed as a woman, and — as the writer has been informed by a most reliable authority — a well-known modem athlete of Herculean build has done the same. This is a tendency of much psychological interest and is indeed worthy of a volume to itself.

Thanks, pal. Now we know how that got its start.

On page 150, though, he touches on the influences of architecture on fashion, which is something I'd been theorising on independently as an attempt to explain some of the banality of modern "fashion" especially in the realm of "leggings" [1], shredded denim, and other hyper-casual/grunge looks and came under some fire for comparing it to the "Brutalist" school of architecture [2]. At that juncture, I wondered if Fluegel had somehow glimpsed the future, and if he had I'd be curious as to how disgusted he might have been.

I still haven't quite finished it, but would recommend a read of it so long as most of the Freudian stuff can be filtered out ("Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!") and the noise on homosexuality toned down (as it has since been widely proved false). It is definitely a piece of its time.


[0] No doubt the patron saint of the Beaumont Society.
[1] The very worst of which leave no doubt in the observer's mind of the wearer's personal grooming choices.
[2] Some of which can actually be quite good, e.g. Boston City Hall

Good review and enlightening.

[crfriend]

Good review and enlightening.

Thank you. It's been an interesting read, and I'm in the "home stretch" now. If one is to read the original text, it's worth recalling some of the context I've called out before because much of the original text is "in disagreement" with a lot of current practise.

Another gem I came across on page 211 today is:

Judged both by the satisfaction given and by its ability to adapt to real situations, men’s clothing must be pronounced a failure; the wholesale inhibitions that underlie it are so severe that they cannot but cause much suffering and much loss of efficiency.

with which I agree entirely. He elaborates on the notions of adornment a bit (e.g. the use of colour and flow of garments) but that is heavily influenced with many of Freud's ideas. (This was before Freud was essentially forced into admitting that "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." and not a phallic symbol.) Thus, I did not bother quoting it; however, the germ is captured, albeit in 1930s terms, and those terms haven't really changed all that much in the realm of men's clothing since then.

Adornment, in the modern era, is important -- and way too lacking. Men's clothes lack variety, they lack colour, and they lack expressivity -- and I happen to place high value on all of those and most supremely the third one. Clothes should serve as an indicator of how we feel, and anybody that says that men do not have feelings has his (or her) head shoved up a place where "the sun don't shine".

I mentioned it in another piece of writing, but I'll repeat it again here, cribbing the "Renunciation" mentioned by Fluegel: "Renounce the Renunciation!". I think it makes for a nice counterpoint to where things are today. Are all men going to immediately take up the mantle of being the "peacock"? No. Lots will decline, whether out of fear or out of shyness, but I really feel that we need to take that role back. Only in doing so will we be able to stand with our sisters, and (just perhaps) pull our sisters out from the depths of grunge. Make the world beautiful again -- "Commit random acts of beauty!"