Eddie Lizard

[Coder]

[... W]e need a label to know what we’re talking about. And the shorter it is the better.

"Style choice". Short, succinct, and to the point directly. Hit the bloody thing dead on and be done with. It's not a "gender thing" it's a style choice.

You've got my vote.

[ScotL]

I apologized to you Coder for using the term “gender-fluid” because I know you hate it. I’m not a fan either. I also think clothes shouldn’t have a gender. There are a few items that one could say are not needed by the other gender eg bras and jocks come to mind but I’m sure even there, some will argue even they should be gender less.

Gender-fluid is a bandaid but it’s the term used because everyone needs a name to know what they are talking about. If we have a better catchy name, we should promote it. If not, gender-fluid will always stick. As much as everyone swears they hate the need for labels, we need a label to know what we’re talking about. And the shorter it is the better.

It would be great to have a different word. We should think about what else to call the fact that men and women are becoming more interested in wearing clothes traditionally associated with the other gender. But what’s the word? Without a new word, there won’t really be much of a discussion and without a discussion, nothing will happen.

Oh, ha, understood. Hate... I would say the term disappoints/frustrates me (although it wouldn't be surprising if I wrote "I hate that term" at some point in the past). Instead of expanding everyone's world, we are just creating a special category and boxing people in. And the discussions here mostly deals with style / fashion - outside of the cafe gender-fluid or non-binary refer to more than just clothes, which is why applying those terms here gets a little tiring.

I sort of like "freestyle fashion" or "freestyler", but both are long and I want to roll my eyes when I use them. Maybe start a new thread? Maybe there is an old thread already that discussed this?

Yeah, need a better term. I do think this cafe is different because you’re right, non-binary and gender-fluid do involve more that just wanting to skirt (that’s a verb??).

I would say there are other traditionally female garments some would also like to wear and also be just a man who is comfortable wearing X.

But it does need a name for it.

Is there another thread that discussed this?

[ScotL]

[... W]e need a label to know what we’re talking about. And the shorter it is the better.

"Style choice". Short, succinct, and to the point directly. Hit the bloody thing dead on and be done with. It's not a "gender thing" it's a style choice.

But that could mean people who just have their style but within the confines of what is traditionally thought to be make or female clothing. His style choice is to wear black shirts and blue pants with brown socks and brown shoes and be as boring as crap

[ScotL]

Maybe we have to start trying to get the word “crossdressing” thrown out as offensive towards the gender-fluid (sorry Coder).

Or better yet just get it thrown out of the lexicon altogether.

Good luck with that. Tell people it’s a taboo word and usage will increase. Inform the world that it’s hateful and unkind and only the hateful and unkind will use it.

[crfriend]

But ["style choice"] could mean people who just have their style but within the confines of what is traditionally thought to be make or female clothing. His style choice is to wear black shirts and blue pants with brown socks and brown shoes and be as boring as crap

Indeed, and is there anything particularly wrong with that? I submit "no", because we all have different tastes.

One of the reasons I "wanted out" of the male strait-jacket of "style" (used sarcastically) is that I wanted colour. I also wanted different "fit"; I wasn't sure of the "inseam problem" at the time, but I knew I wanted something different and wanted more options when it came to colour. For the gods' sake, even "women's" trousers were available with colours not available to men, and in vastly more variety. I still recall being rather taken by a s pair of trousers that a long-ago girlfriend had that had embroidered roses climbing up one leg.

If a guy wants to stick to blue, black, and brown, that's his issue. I want the freedom to push the envelope.

If I could find a pair of trousers like I mentioned before, I'd jump on 'em if the legs were wide enough (and long enough), I'm done with male drab. Pretty much alone in all of the animal species on Earth, it's only in humans where the male is the drab one. This needs to change. We need to take back our birthright -- if we're interested.

[STEVIE]

This needs to change. We need to take back our birthright -- if we're interested.

Because, if we don't no one else will do it for us.
All the hypothesising, wailing and blaming anyone but ourselves will not alter that little fact one iota.
It will simply be, put up or shut up and look out the drab, today and tomorrow ad nauseum.
Steve.

[rode_kater]

Maybe we have to start trying to get the word “crossdressing” thrown out as offensive towards the gender-fluid (sorry Coder).

Or better yet just get it thrown out of the lexicon altogether.

I don't get the hate on the word "crossdressing". I vastly prefer it to the alternative: "transvestism", which is basically the medical term. I disagree that it's trying to degrade men, after all, there are also female crossdressers.

In my opinion it's a simple descriptive word: it describes what you do, not what you are. I find it about as predjudice-free a term as you can find in this area. You could argue the word shouldn't exist and in an ideal world perhaps it wouldn't but we're not there yet. If we get to the point where the word no longer has meaning it will disappear by itself.

Out of curiosity, I put both those words in google ngram viewer and it says that while both words are quite old, transvestism is actually the more commonly used. And transvestite beats crossdresser by a bigger margin, and crossdresser only really appeared in the 80's. It must be looking at medical papers or something.

[ScotL]

Maybe we have to start trying to get the word “crossdressing” thrown out as offensive towards the gender-fluid (sorry Coder).

Or better yet just get it thrown out of the lexicon altogether.

I don't get the hate on the word "crossdressing". I vastly prefer it to the alternative: "transvestism", which is basically the medical term. I disagree that it's trying to degrade men, after all, there are also female crossdressers.

In my opinion it's a simple descriptive word: it describes what you do, not what you are. I find it about as predjudice-free a term as you can find in this area. You could argue the word shouldn't exist and in an ideal world perhaps it wouldn't but we're not there yet. If we get to the point where the word no longer has meaning it will disappear by itself.

Out of curiosity, I put both those words in google ngram viewer and it says that while both words are quite old, transvestism is actually the more commonly used. And transvestite beats crossdresser by a bigger margin, and crossdresser only really appeared in the 80's. It must be looking at medical papers or something.

Transvestism is a medical term and one that explains a person who gets sexually excited at wearing the clothes not traditionally assigned to their gender. There are way more men than women in this category.

Crossdressing has a negative connotation that is associated with shame in doing something one ought not to do. I wish it didn’t but it’s not a term of endearment. Can you imagine a fiancée bringing home her beau and introducing him to her parents by saying “he’s a cross dresser!” like she would say “he’s a lawyer!”?

We need a better term. We don’t have one already because this is a topic that’s not generally discussed rationally. Men wearing women’s clothing is always discussed as drag or negatively.

One reason I am encouraged of late is the positive articles written recently and published online. I think in the past, articles of men wearing skirts either would not be written, would involve discussions surrounding some fundraiser to support a woman’s cause or as a police report of that pervert who’s running around in a skirt. But now, the articles over the past ten years are increasingly positive towards the idea.

And as much as we want it to change suddenly and see all men embrace the MIS idea, all of this takes time. But things only change with pressure and these positive articles help. If there was only a term to exemplify the positive nature of people wearing what they want from clothing not traditionally associated with their gender. Crap, don’t even need that broad right? Women already can. Need a term that normalizes it for men.

[moonshadow]

This sensitive soul is growing weary of it. Too much hate and anger spewed forth by keyboard warriors!

Comment sections are the sewer of the internet.

What Lizard does is her own business.

[crfriend]

I don't get the hate on the word "crossdressing". I vastly prefer it to the alternative: "transvestism", which is basically the medical term. I disagree that it's trying to degrade men, after all, there are also female crossdressers.

My detestation of the word comes from the fact that it is only applied to men, never to women. Are there women crossdressers? Yes. Can you show me one and not get the assertion thrown out?

Also, "transvestite" (one who is afflicted with "fetishistic transvestism" from the DSM) is merely a tarted-up "Latin" version of "crossdresser" with the roots being cross=trans and dress=vest. It's not the existence of the word that's offensive; it's the way it's used in practise. We -- of all people -- should not be using it or encouraging its use.

[howardfh]

To me, a "transvestite" (aka "me") is one who likes to wear clothes more commonly worn by the opposite sex and look the same (or as best as).

A "crossdresser" (also "me") is one who likes to keep the "masculine" image yet wear clothes more commonly worn by the opposite sex, such as wearing a skort for sports.

There are no sexual connotations involved, just like a naturist sunning themselves on a beach.

[Freedomforall]

To me, a "transvestite" (aka "me") is one who likes to wear clothes more commonly worn by the opposite sex and look the same (or as best as).

A "crossdresser" (also "me") is one who likes to keep the "masculine" image yet wear clothes more commonly worn by the opposite sex, such as wearing a skort for sports.

There are no sexual connotations involved, just like a naturist sunning themselves on a beach.

That begs a question to be asked. Why does it have to have labels and why do those labels seem to only apply to men doing the exact same thing as women?
Yet women do not get labeled this way.

[ScotL]

To me, a "transvestite" (aka "me") is one who likes to wear clothes more commonly worn by the opposite sex and look the same (or as best as).

A "crossdresser" (also "me") is one who likes to keep the "masculine" image yet wear clothes more commonly worn by the opposite sex, such as wearing a skort for sports.

There are no sexual connotations involved, just like a naturist sunning themselves on a beach.

Using psych speak, cross dressing is the act of wearing clothes associated with the other gender and transvestitism is cross dressing for sexual gratification.

Outside of the medical use of transvestism, which has useful connotations to aid diagnoses and treatment, I detest the lay use of both terms. One, when used by the lay public, both terms have a negative connotation.

Two, there are a few women associated with transvestism but never really cross dressing. Begs the question of why? In my mind it comes down to sexism. Men, considered the stronger gender in patriarchy, wearing clothing of the “weaker gender” are therefore considered to have weakened themselves. A negative connotation.

And finally, it highlights the fact that women wear whatever they want to and men conform to the uniform. Women don’t cross dress not because they don’t wear masculine clothing but because they don’t feel shame in doing so.

[rode_kater]

My detestation of the word comes from the fact that it is only applied to men, never to women. Are there women crossdressers? Yes. Can you show me one and not get the assertion thrown out?

Ask and ye shall receive: Reddit Crossdressing sub, filtered on ftm

Generally ftm crossdressers need to use a binder. They are indeed much more rare.

[Myopic Bookworm]

Crossdressing has a negative connotation that is associated with shame in doing something one ought not to do.

We need a better term. We don’t have one already because this is a topic that’s not generally discussed rationally. Men wearing women’s clothing is always discussed as drag or negatively.

One of the retorts that I have saved up in case of need is "I'm not cross-dressing, I'm free-dressing". Along with enquiries about women in trousesrs.