Sex and Gender
- Jim
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Sex and Gender
Here and there I've seen many discussions on the subject, so I figured I could offer my own proposals. What do folks here think?
Gender and Sex
Thoughts by Jim
So much controversy comes from unclear language so start with definitions.
Definitions
Sex: Refers to biology. There are two sexes, male and female, and occassional intersex conditions, so three choices, M, F, or I. Sex is defined by chromosomes. XX is female, XY is male. Sex is not changeable.
Gender: Refers to social role. Masculine and Feminine are the predominate genders that traditionally have correlated with male and female sexes. One's gender does not have to correspond with one's sex and other gender choices, names and definitions are acceptable. One's gender can change.
Social Issues
Sports: Sports are physical and therefore should be based on biology. Testosterone builds muscle mass. If one has or had testicles that produce testosterone and the body can or could use testosterone one does not participate in female sports. The alternative to female sports are open sports where anyone can participate regardless of sex or gender.
Pronouns: Refer to gender, not sex. Decide one a set of pronouns that cover "that one whose gender is unknown, immaterial, or neither masculine or feminine". This set of pronouns is to be acceptable for anyone.
Freedom of Religion: A religious group is free to require that sex and gender match, or to require that a marriage be between those of opposite sex, and to make membership and employment decisions based on following those requirements.
Restrooms: This is a social situation so determined by gender, not sex. Have "everyone" restrooms available. As people learn this works fine, the masculine and feminine restrooms can be gradually phased out as local conditions allow.
Gender and Sex
Thoughts by Jim
So much controversy comes from unclear language so start with definitions.
Definitions
Sex: Refers to biology. There are two sexes, male and female, and occassional intersex conditions, so three choices, M, F, or I. Sex is defined by chromosomes. XX is female, XY is male. Sex is not changeable.
Gender: Refers to social role. Masculine and Feminine are the predominate genders that traditionally have correlated with male and female sexes. One's gender does not have to correspond with one's sex and other gender choices, names and definitions are acceptable. One's gender can change.
Social Issues
Sports: Sports are physical and therefore should be based on biology. Testosterone builds muscle mass. If one has or had testicles that produce testosterone and the body can or could use testosterone one does not participate in female sports. The alternative to female sports are open sports where anyone can participate regardless of sex or gender.
Pronouns: Refer to gender, not sex. Decide one a set of pronouns that cover "that one whose gender is unknown, immaterial, or neither masculine or feminine". This set of pronouns is to be acceptable for anyone.
Freedom of Religion: A religious group is free to require that sex and gender match, or to require that a marriage be between those of opposite sex, and to make membership and employment decisions based on following those requirements.
Restrooms: This is a social situation so determined by gender, not sex. Have "everyone" restrooms available. As people learn this works fine, the masculine and feminine restrooms can be gradually phased out as local conditions allow.
- moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender
My thoughts on it...
I just don't know man... I'm sure this thread will be quite disappointing as based on some other threads I've read (and stayed out of mind you...) I didn't realize so many members here had lines so firmly drawn on issues.
My thoughts on it...
People are crazy. Love them anyway....
I just don't know man... I'm sure this thread will be quite disappointing as based on some other threads I've read (and stayed out of mind you...) I didn't realize so many members here had lines so firmly drawn on issues.
My thoughts on it...
People are crazy. Love them anyway....
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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Re: Sex and Gender
The definitions I agree with and I broadly agree with the sports, although I think the type of sport may be relevant as well as the age at which the competitor underwent physical gender reassignment.
I do not agree the other social issues. Pronouns belong to the speaker and not the referent, so the speaker chooses the pronouns they see fit to use when speaking to another party about you. You, as the referent, have no right to determine the semantic and grammatical choices made by a speaker to another person. Marriage is determined by social convention. I have no objections to post-op trans people marrying someone of their original sex as the parties are now opposite sex. Changes to the definition of what a marriage is and the qualifications for it should be chosen by a cultural consensus and facilitated/ratified by the law - it should not be decided arbitrarily by lawmakers based on their ideological convictions or opinions. For the sake of decency and comfort of all users, restrooms, showering and changing facilities should follow physiology and not preference or how one identifies. I would vehemently and aggressively object if someone who was obviously female entered a male changing room or toilet while I was using it.
I do not agree the other social issues. Pronouns belong to the speaker and not the referent, so the speaker chooses the pronouns they see fit to use when speaking to another party about you. You, as the referent, have no right to determine the semantic and grammatical choices made by a speaker to another person. Marriage is determined by social convention. I have no objections to post-op trans people marrying someone of their original sex as the parties are now opposite sex. Changes to the definition of what a marriage is and the qualifications for it should be chosen by a cultural consensus and facilitated/ratified by the law - it should not be decided arbitrarily by lawmakers based on their ideological convictions or opinions. For the sake of decency and comfort of all users, restrooms, showering and changing facilities should follow physiology and not preference or how one identifies. I would vehemently and aggressively object if someone who was obviously female entered a male changing room or toilet while I was using it.
- moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender
... and so it begins...
I hope there's enough soap boxes to go around...
I hope there's enough soap boxes to go around...
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
- Fred in Skirts
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Re: Sex and Gender
I agree with this statement since it is a reproducible output in the lab.Jim wrote:Thoughts by Jim
So much controversy comes from unclear language so start with definitions.
Definitions
Sex: Refers to biology. There are two sexes, male and female, and occassional intersex conditions, so three choices, M, F, or I. Sex is defined by chromosomes. XX is female, XY is male. Sex is not changeable.
Once again I have to agree. Sex and gender do not have to agree with each other.Jim wrote:Gender: Refers to social role. Masculine and Feminine are the predominate genders that traditionally have correlated with male and female sexes. One's gender does not have to correspond with one's sex and other gender choices, names and definitions are acceptable. One's gender can change.
Sports are best left to those who play them and make up the rules. I could not care one way or the other.Jim wrote:Social Issues
Sports: Sports are physical and therefore should be based on biology. Testosterone builds muscle mass. If one has or had testicles that produce testosterone and the body can or could use testosterone one does not participate in female sports. The alternative to female sports are open sports where anyone can participate regardless of sex or gender.
It really does not make any difference what pronoun is used by the speaker or the listener if it makes a difference to you just use "IT".Jim wrote:Pronouns: Refer to gender, not sex. Decide one a set of pronouns that cover "that one whose gender is unknown, immaterial, or neither masculine or feminine". This set of pronouns is to be acceptable for anyone.
Remember to keep the church and state separate.Jim wrote:Freedom of Religion: A religious group is free to require that sex and gender match, or to require that a marriage be between those of opposite sex, and to make membership and employment decisions based on following those requirements.
I do not care one way or the other on this issue as I have used open bath room facilities. I did not have any problems nor did the other occupants of which there were several of both sexes present.Jim wrote:Restrooms: This is a social situation so determined by gender, not sex. Have "everyone" restrooms available. As people learn this works fine, the masculine and feminine restrooms can be gradually phased out as local conditions allow.
Last edited by Fred in Skirts on Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
- moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender
^
There might be hope yet....
There might be hope yet....
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
- moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender
Here's a string to pull on....
Something I thought a little deeper about that I posted on another thread:
From this post. (link)
Indeed, the mind does not have a penis or a vagina. It's a mind. What is a mind? The dictionary defines a "mind" as "The part or faculty of a person by which one feels, perceives, thinks, remembers, desires, and imagines."
I'm feeling a eureka moment coming on, but I can't quite put my finger on it.... nevertheless, this mental knot does seem to be loosening.
Something I thought a little deeper about that I posted on another thread:
From this post. (link)
What is the gender of the mind? Here I inadvertently referred to the mind as an "it", which is considered a gender neutral pronoun.moonshadow wrote:If trans-life has everything to do with what the mind believes itself to be,...
Indeed, the mind does not have a penis or a vagina. It's a mind. What is a mind? The dictionary defines a "mind" as "The part or faculty of a person by which one feels, perceives, thinks, remembers, desires, and imagines."
I'm feeling a eureka moment coming on, but I can't quite put my finger on it.... nevertheless, this mental knot does seem to be loosening.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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Re: Sex and Gender
How can they do that? That's like saying they require nobody to be left-handed or have brown eyes.Jim wrote: Freedom of Religion: A religious group is free to require that sex and gender match,
They can exclude transgender people from their church, or rail against them, which raises the question whether a cult which practices exclusion and hatred can be classed as a religion. They can produce ancient texts which they translate as condemning transgender people or denying their existence; at best, this makes them look like a group of ignorant bigots, at worst a gang of culpable liars. They can attempt to brainwash children and drive them to suicide - but this is now banned in most civilised places.
Membership perhaps, but not employment. Religion should not take precedence over the law and no belief, however sincerely held, should give you the right to ruin someone elses life. Imagine the fuss there would be if a homosexual boss gave 'membership of a church' as the reason for sacking an employee.or to require that a marriage be between those of opposite sex, and to make membership and employment decisions based on following those requirements.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
- moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender
Ironically, that's highly illegal in the U.S., but not the other way around....pelmut wrote:magine the fuss there would be if a homosexual boss gave 'membership of a church' as the reason for sacking an employee.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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Re: Sex and Gender
Membership of a church is something you can choose to do or not do; being born homosexual is something over which you have no choice. That sounds to me like legalised punishment of the innocent by the willfully guilty.moonshadow wrote:Ironically, that's highly illegal in the U.S., but not the other way around....pelmut wrote:Imagine the fuss there would be if a homosexual boss gave 'membership of a church' as the reason for sacking an employee.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
- crfriend
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Re: Sex and Gender
That about sums it up.pelmut wrote:Membership of a church is something you can choose to do or not do; being born homosexual is something over which you have no choice. That sounds to me like legalised punishment of the innocent by the willfully guilty.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
- moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender
Yep...crfriend wrote:That about sums it up.pelmut wrote:Membership of a church is something you can choose to do or not do; being born homosexual is something over which you have no choice. That sounds to me like legalised punishment of the innocent by the willfully guilty.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
- Fred in Skirts
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Re: Sex and Gender
My personal beliefs should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
Being a member of a particular religion should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What I wear is my business and should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What I am as far as sex or gender goes should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What organizations I belong to now or in the past.
Yet all of the above are reasons that people get fired or hired, even though they are illegal. These are the true reasons but they are not the reason they give you. Just so they can say they are abiding by the laws, otherwise they would all be going to jail!!
Being a member of a particular religion should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What I wear is my business and should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What I am as far as sex or gender goes should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What organizations I belong to now or in the past.
Yet all of the above are reasons that people get fired or hired, even though they are illegal. These are the true reasons but they are not the reason they give you. Just so they can say they are abiding by the laws, otherwise they would all be going to jail!!
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
- moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender
Yeah, they could fire you, or in my case keep you on, because you do good work, but just don't let you near the big buttons and levers of the business.
Story of my life man.... story of my life.
I'm good enough to work my ass off...
... that's about it.
Story of my life man.... story of my life.
I'm good enough to work my ass off...
... that's about it.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
- SkirtsDad
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Re: Sex and Gender
If I was going to worry about someone peering over my shoulder whilst I'm standing there peeing, it's less likely to be the women. I'm in favour of non-gendered toilets. A friend of mine campaigned with the local university to un-gender the toilets and they did just that. Nice that one small voice can sometimes make a lot of difference.Stu wrote:if someone who was obviously female entered a male changing room or toilet while I was using it.
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