Nice article that mentions Skirtcafe favorably

[pelmut]

We are in fact tackling that real culprit, and very rapidly too, considering it is a society-wide change. The whole "gender" idea seems rather more a distraction from and even harmful to that project. I say we put "gender" in the circular bin,

I agree entirely that society is the biggest culprit in making transgender people miserable, enforcing certain dress rules on men and indoctinating boys into a macho culture. There are other lesser culprits, but gender isn't one of them, it is a poorly-understood and poorly defined property of people. To abolish it is like saying the cause of obesity is due to the distinction between weight and mass, but most people find the concept of mass difficult to understand, so let's abolish mass and it will make dealing with obesity easier.

...along with the puberty blocker drugs Santa gave some of our kids for Xmas

Puberty blockers are saving lives (and, incidentally, steering a few children away from undergoing treatment they may later regret); if they were to be abolished, there would many more child suicides.  If there were a better way of preventing suicide in underage transgender children and reducing the years of agonising puberty-reversal treatment required by transgender adolescents, it would be in use by now.

[crfriend]

To abolish [gender] is like saying the cause of obesity is due to the distinction between weight and mass, but most people find the concept of mass difficult to understand, so let's abolish mass and it will make dealing with obesity easier.

Mass and weight are easy to understand once one gets beyond the fact that one is a constant and the other is dependent upon acceleration. At rest on most of the surface of Earth, weight is equal to mass as weight is defined as the measured force of an object subjected to the acceleration of 1g, with "g" being the acceleration caused by the gravitational attraction of the Earth (which varies by a minute amount depending on where on the planet you are). Obesity is a condition typically attributable to taking in more caloric intake than one requires day-to-day and which accumulates as fat -- an objectively completely different phenomenon.

The gender issue is more in the purview of sociology than physics. Physics is a "hard" science (in that it is entirely possible to be provably flat wrong on something) whereas sociology is a notoriously "soft" subject where there is no "right" or "wrong".

Puberty blockers are saving lives (and, incidentally, steering a few children away from undergoing treatment they may later regret); if they were to be abolished, there would many more child suicides.

If the current rules were relaxed to where they were 50 years ago, how bad would the problem be in absolute numbers? I rather suspect -- but cannot prove -- vastly less because there would be less societally-induced confusion all the way 'round.

I really suspect we're "diagnosing" entirely normal masculinity as "trans-*" due to societal influence and not science -- and it's causing folks (children and adults alike, but children especially, as adults can mentally fight it off) a world of hurt. As a tangential example, note that the modern diagnosis of "Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder" perfectly describes "childhood". We've overdone things here.

[pelmut]

..Mass and weight are easy to understand once one gets beyond the fact that one is a constant and the other is dependent upon acceleration.

Gender and gender expression are also easy to understand once one gets beyond the fact that one is a constant and the other is dependent on society's current expectations of an individual with that constant.

If the current rules were relaxed to where they were 50 years ago, how bad would the problem be in absolute numbers? I rather suspect -- but cannot prove -- vastly less because there would be less societally-induced confusion all the way 'round.

It is difficult to find any statistics from 50 years ago because transgender-related suicides weren't recorded as such, but from my own personal experience, things were much worse for the transgender person and slightly easier for society who could just laugh and say "Oh well, they were crazy anyway".  I watched a colleague transition about 30 years ago; I wouldn't have wanted to discover I was trangender then, but it would have been far worse 20 years before that.

I really suspect we're "diagnosing" entirely normal masculinity as "trans-*" due to societal influence and not science...

It certainly isn't science.  I can't see much sign of it happening at the moment on this (R.H.) side of the pond; there are well-behaved, sympathetic and co-operative men who would never be regarded as anything but men and there are aggressive macho posers who consider they are the only 'real' men - but society doesn't seem to be favouring one in preference to the other.  It seems to me that you have been seeing more of the latter type recently, but things will eventually swing back.  I suspect that calling ordinary non-aggressive men "gay" or "trangender" is just the bully's way of insulting them and the mass media have been feeding off this for a long time now.

[crfriend]

Gender and gender expression are also easy to understand once one gets beyond the fact that one is a constant and the other is dependent on society's current expectations of an individual with that constant.

I've taken the liberty of highlighting where the crux of the problem lies -- and it's not within ourselves. Every time we think we've got it solved the goalposts move. Again.

I can't see much sign of [misclassification] happening at the moment on this (R.H.) side of the pond; there are well-behaved, sympathetic and co-operative men who would never be regarded as anything but men and there are aggressive macho posers who consider they are the only 'real' men - but society doesn't seem to be favouring one in preference to the other.  It seems to me that you have been seeing more of the latter type recently, but things will eventually swing back.  I suspect that calling ordinary non-aggressive men "gay" or "trangender" is just the bully's way of insulting them and the mass media have been feeding off this for a long time now.

It's quite possible that there is an ocean of difference based on which side of "the pond" we live on, but here in the US it can get pretty dire. Your last sentence rings particularly well here. The problem is that it's not just the aggressive male bullies that are causing trouble, it's also the women. Here you're either Harvey Weinstein or you're trans-* and there seems no middle ground.

[moonshadow]

The problem is that it's not just the aggressive male bullies that are causing trouble, it's also the women.

Indeed, why, just the other day, whilst walking into Walmart skirted I heard one of the loud and obnoxious FEMALE employees of the Subway restaurant SHOUT in a very aggressive tone "WHAT THE F-CK IS HE WEARING!?!?"

My main thought was "how charming and lady like"

It seems in America there are two genders after all, redneck, and everyone else.

Yes.. I believe "redneck" is its own gender. After all when it comes to redneck males and females, you can't really differentiate between the two....

[moonshadow]

Indeed, when it comes to "ladylike" behavior in Appalachia, only two types of people seem to fit the bill, the religious women.... and me....

....and I'm not even trans.... *shrugs* I dunno-whattayado?

[pelmut]

... here in the US it can get pretty dire.

Ripples from that seem to be coming over here in media coverage, but luckily the reaction of most people is to assume it is because we are seeing media-selected 'highlights' and the average American is just as unhappy with that sort of behaviour as we are.



Belated nitpick: Weight is the result of gravitational force acting on a mass, acceleration is just a manifestation of that.

[Sinned]

Now Moon, if that had happened to me then I would have complained rather forcibly to the management of the store. I had thought about making a complaint about a couple of rather crass questions from a male colleague but decided to give him the benefit of the doubt this time but hang him if he does it again. Over here management takes obnoxious remarks rather seriously so something would get done.

[Daryl]

We are in fact tackling that real culprit, and very rapidly too, considering it is a society-wide change. The whole "gender" idea seems rather more a distraction from and even harmful to that project. I say we put "gender" in the circular bin,

I agree entirely that society is the biggest culprit in making transgender people miserable, enforcing certain dress rules on men and indoctinating boys into a macho culture. There are other lesser culprits, but gender isn't one of them, it is a poorly-understood and poorly defined property of people. To abolish it is like saying the cause of obesity is due to the distinction between weight and mass, but most people find the concept of mass difficult to understand, so let's abolish mass and it will make dealing with obesity easier.

...along with the puberty blocker drugs Santa gave some of our kids for Xmas

Puberty blockers are saving lives (and, incidentally, steering a few children away from undergoing treatment they may later regret); if they were to be abolished, there would many more child suicides.  If there were a better way of preventing suicide in underage transgender children and reducing the years of agonising puberty-reversal treatment required by transgender adolescents, it would be in use by now.

"Gender" is poorly defined (and subsequently poorly understood) precisely because it is not real. Your weight vs. mass analogy fails completely because both of those are observable and directly measurable. They are as real as a cement block or sunshine.

A better analogy involving obesity would be saying that obesity is a consequence of having a lack of pride. "He's so fat, doesn't he have any pride?" certainly sounds familiar. So far, the cure for obesity has been to stop weight-shaming people, but this hasn't actually changed the real, measurable weight of anyone.

Convince me that puberty blockers are doing what you say and I will concede the point. I have seen strong arguments against the statements that you have already made, so just making the assertion doesn't work. This article echos my concerns and those of many others. In particular I see an immense methodological challenge in proving the negative "suicides didn't happen" because it would be nigh impossible to control everything enough to preclude other reasons for any apparent reduction in the number of expected suicides in the studied group.

I will also point out that puberty blockers as a means to make room for people to decide is making room for people to decide whether or not to undergo surgery. That surgery is for changing sex. Sex, not "gender" (except as a synonym for "sex"). I still see no reason to keep reifying the concept of "gender", since "sex" works just fine.

[moonshadow]

Now Moon, if that had happened to me then I would have complained rather forcibly to the management of the store. I had thought about making a complaint about a couple of rather crass questions from a male colleague but decided to give him the benefit of the doubt this time but hang him if he does it again. Over here management takes obnoxious remarks rather seriously so something would get done.

It wouldn't do any good. They might offer some coupons for a free cookie or something, which I'm not interested in. I have no desire to give that subway my business, and it has nothing to do with being cussed at. The simple fact of the matter is they are always out of everything, the customer service sucks, they're rude, etc... right up to management. I've also met the owner of that particular chain, and he's an asshole to say the least. He acts like he's better than everybody.

It also has nothing to do with skirts, I reached these conclusions in "normal" attire.

Additionally, I'm not sure which one said it. There were three female workers in the store and no customers. I'm sure they will have each other's back should a complaint be submitted. Everyone knows a woman don't lie, and three together is a holy trinity. I don't stand a chance. Also I would not have community support since the scriptures (the law of the land) say nothing of a woman dropping an "F" bomb, but are quite clear on the matter of a crossdressing guy....

No sir... I just walk on by.... one must choose his battles....

[Fred in Skirts]

My local Sub-Way shop is always good. I remember the first time I went in wearing a skirt, the staff behind the counter were very young and probably never seen a man in a skirt before. There were grins being hidden and the oldest probably the manager pushed them out of the way and asked for my order. She was as you say totally non plussed because of my skirt. When I was checking out she instead of asking did I want to buy a cookie, she placed one in my bag and did not charge for it. I could hear her as I went out the door giving them HE*L for the way they acted. I have never had any problems since. And they do make a fairly good sandwich.

[moonshadow]

Yeah I hear ya ... Ahhh... i just live in an old dumb hick town.

[Daryl]

Yeah I hear ya ... Ahhh... i just live in an old dumb hick town.

But at least one can get chicken fried chicken there!

[moonshadow]

Yeah I hear ya ... Ahhh... i just live in an old dumb hick town.

But at least one can get chicken fried chicken there!

HA!

Although technically, we had to drive to Abingdon to get your new fave.

Had we had stayed in Lebanon, I suppose whatever we ate would have been served with a side of crass behavior from the local crackheads.

That local [Lebanon Virginia] Subway has always had trouble since I moved here, and others see it too (bad reviews on Google). What's that saying?? I mean... how does one really screw up a sandwich?

[crfriend]

What's that saying?? I mean... how does one really screw up a sandwich?

True, it is difficult to screw up a sandwich, but if the environs in which the sandwich is consumed are lousy then the entire experience will be lousy. The sandwich suffers collateral damage. Feel bad for the sandwich.