Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

[dillon]

The worst thing here is that it takes a disruptive custody battle to bring attention to the broader issue of how parents should be educated to deal with gender identity. But consider if the kid had parents united in the belief that it’s a duty to impose their own view of appropriate gender identity and sexuality upon a child without regard for the distress Inflicted. We hear about this situation only because it’s a public spectacle played out in a courtroom. But at least in this case the child seems to have understanding parents who simply, if vehemently, disagree. It would be worse if both parents were on the same page in aggressively suppressing the kid’s gender feelings. The damage to the child would be more severe, and would never be known outside that family. In fact society would be commending the family as a model of stability without a thought about the silent, hidden misery of the kid whose nature is ignored and scorned...and perhaps actively punished.

[pelmut]

..consider if the kid had parents united in the belief that it’s a duty to impose their own view of appropriate gender identity and sexuality upon a child without regard for the distress Inflicted. ..

e.g. Leelah Alcorn

[oldsalt1]

There are numerous comments on the effects the laws, custody fight etc. have on this case I would like to direct the commentary in another direction

My question is can a 7 year old truly decide what gender he or she wants to be without the influence from the parents or other adults

[pelmut]

...My question is can a 7 year old truly decide what gender he or she wants to be without the influence from the parents or other adults

I think the answer will depend on what you mean by 'decide'.  Without influence from the parents and other outsiders, the answer is almost certainly "Yes", but a child is very susceptible to influence and the chances of getting an uninfluenced answer are very small. A skilled child psychiatrist might be able to get at the true answer obliquely*, but can you be sure the psychiatrist is unbiassed?

Children who aren't transgender probably wouldn't understand the question, because there would be no reason for them to differentiate between their sex and ther gender.  Children who are transgender and face a battle between influence and what they know to be true, they will be only too aware of 'something', but may not be able to express it, especially if they are influenced to believe that their feelings of their true gender are 'wrong'. If they are strongly dysphoric, they will keep overriding the influence and will be Insistent, Persistent and Consistent that they are of the gender they say they are. This usually begins to show up at the age of four or five, so that is probably the age at which children can become aware of gender (unless transgender children are unusually precocious in this respect).


* In my case, if asked if I was transgender, I would have answered "No" for most of my life, but recently I started to look back at all the telltale signs I had ignored -- and they all pointed the same way.  Every time I took a small step towards being more feminine, I realised it felt better than before and I wouldn't want to go back. Every time I caught myself doing something uncomfortably 'masculine', I remembered the resentment I had felt at being made to do it by my parents.  When I read a book or watched a film, I empathised with the female character and just dismissed the swashbuckling hero as an annoyingly stupid prat -- and I remembered doing that from when I first started reading fiction in my childhood.  It was all there, but I wouldn't have seen it because of the influence I was under -- and would have have answered "No".

[Daryl]

The worst thing here is that it takes a disruptive custody battle to bring attention to the broader issue of how parents should be educated to deal with gender identity. But consider if the kid had parents united in the belief that it’s a duty to impose their own view of appropriate gender identity and sexuality upon a child without regard for the distress Inflicted.

All of that can be said without invoking either "gender" or "identity". For example, "parents united in the belief that it’s a duty to impose their own view of appropriate gender identity and sexuality" can be re-stated as "parents united in the belief that it’s a duty to impose their own norms based on sex".

[Daryl]

There are numerous comments on the effects the laws, custody fight etc. have on this case I would like to direct the commentary in another direction

My question is can a 7 year old truly decide what gender he or she wants to be without the influence from the parents or other adults

No, not even a 12 year old can. The only real struggle here is who gets to claim the authority to influence kids; the state/society or the parents/family. Do the "experts" know best, or parents?

[Ralph]

Does anybody have any idea how the child feels about the matter -- and is the child actually mature enough to make a rational decision on the matter?
What about the ever-moving goalposts of what it means to be "a man"? Has anybody bothered to consider that? I rather suspect not.

Indeed. Imagine how differently this could have turned out if someone had taken the time to explain to the kid, "Just because you wear dresses doesn't make you a girl. Boys can wear dresses if they want. You can be a boy who likes to wear dresses!"

[crfriend]

Imagine how differently this could have turned out if someone had taken the time to explain to the kid, "Just because you wear dresses doesn't make you a girl. Boys can wear dresses if they want. You can be a boy who likes to wear dresses!"

Yes, imagine that -- somebody bringing up the plain fact that clothes are clothes and are typically taken off at the end of the day and which do not alter character nor alignment one whit. It'd be worth bringing it up to the lad that it's unusual -- abnormal, even -- for a boy to wear dresses and that he can expect a bit of abuse for it, but it does not alter the fabric of his being. One could then contrast the opposite for girls -- and the inherent injustice -- for effect. Children grasp these concepts, and I suspect that the notion of now-entrenched societal unfairness to boys has already begun to take its toll.

In short, the father must take the stance of, "Son, if this is what you want to do, I'll back you in it, and I hope your mom will too. Just expect a lot of grief in the process." And that will take a hell of a lot of guts from the father.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Interesting hypotheses, but the reality is that 4-year-old kids know who they are, at least to this extent whether or not they have the vocabulary to express it.

As Pelmut said, if the child is consistent, persistent and insistent that they need that cute dress/shirt ASAP because they ARE a girl/boy, they're probably right.

Making it easier for boys to wear dresses the way girls wear pants might help on the margins, but by taking that step, more people who are indisputably transgendered will come out of hiding.

[oldsalt1]

Again I will ask is the child dysphoric because they are truly unsure of what they are or is it because the parents are trying to impose their desires upon the child.

What if the mother is a complete nut job and wanted a matched set of twins with one boy and one girl. and this is the one she chose to be the girl.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Gender dysphoria isn't a matter of a person being uncertain of their gender, but rather of the person feeling very certain that they're trapped in the wrong type of body.

[pelmut]

Again I will ask is the child dysphoric because they are truly unsure of what they are or is it because the parents are trying to impose their desires upon the child.

Dysphoria occurs because of certainty about what they are; they know they are one thing and people keep telling them they are something else.  It's not like a child who imagines they are an elephant or a fairy for a couple of days; deep down they know what they really are.  When the child discovers that this misgendering is because of the appearance of their body, they become dissatisfied with their body and that is defined as dysphoria.

What if the mother is a complete nut job and wanted a matched set of twins with one boy and one girl. and this is the one she chose to be the girl.

Then the boy would be insistent, persistent and consistent that he was a boy. He would protest that he didn't want to be dressed like a girl because he was a boy; it wouldn't take much probing to get that out of him, no matter what persuasion or threats the mother had used to make him say otherwise.

[crfriend]

What of the argument, "I like frilly things, therefore I must be a girl because they're forbidden for boys."?

It's distorted logic, of course, but frequently that's the sort of logic that a child will have at their disposal. (None of this has been seen in public, so we're guessing at which straws to grasp at.) How should the court act?

As far as the father building up a "war chest" of cash (which the court derided), he's going to need that for when the mother "wins" and he has to support the whole deal including her legal expenses, her, and the kid. The "loser" in this is going to be the father -- emotionally and financially -- without a wife, a home, or his children. The child will likely wind up OK and the mother will get to gloat in her "victory" and the destruction of the father.

[pelmut]

What of the argument, "I like frilly things, therefore I must be a girl because they're forbidden for boys."?

It's distorted logic, of course, but frequently that's the sort of logic that a child will have at their disposal. (None of this has been seen in public, so we're guessing at which straws to grasp at.) How should the court act?

A court that behaved responsibly wouldn't base its decison on one incident or one preference, they would seek professional advice which ought to be based on a whole range of things and ought to be unbiassed.

The child will likely wind up OK and the mother will get to gloat in her "victory" and the destruction of the father.

It isn't always the case that the mother wants a 'victory'; sometimes the mother can be doing everything possible to hold the marriage together and give the child access to a proper father. If the father is blind to the needs of the child and feels he must prove his dominance, even if it is to the detriment of the child, the mother may have no choice but to seek a separation in a desperate attempt to prevent the father from doing further harm to the child.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Once again, I couldn't agree more with Pelmut!

In the future, when things like this come into Cafe could we please limit our comments to concerns based on the facts at hand rather than far-fetched speculations based on our prejudices.

From 1986 to about 2005 or 6, the end date has gotten hazy, I was a very active crossdresser who went out in public, and I do mean nearly everywhere, crossdressed. I was very active in a local crossdressers' group that had connections to other crossdressers groups throughout the US. At the time a number of members joined as crossdressers and came to realize they were actually transsexual. During their transition or at the latest shortly they had had surgery they left the group because they wanted to get on with their lives as women, preferably in a manner that left no doubt that they were really women. I met a few members who talked about transitioning that I wondered if they were taking crossdressing to its illogical conclusion. Considering what all is involved and how disruptive it is to one's life, looking back I doubt anyone went all of the way through the process who were doing it for spurious reasons.

So no, I don't think that if as boys they had been allowed to wear dresses any of them wouldn't have changed sexes.

In addition, plenty of parents today allow their children to explore their gender identity, including boys wearing dresses without any particular meaning being attached to their doing that so we can all stand down.