How many is enough to normalise us?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Sinned » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:05 pm

Wl, but a kilt IS a a skirt, albeit a more particular one. It hangs from the waist and has a circular hem with no partitioning into two parts so therefore is a skirt. It has pleats and an apron but then so do other skirts that aren't kilts. The tartans aren't unique to kilts and not all kilts have a tartan pattern. We've had this discussion before.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Pdxfashionpioneer » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 pm

In the context of my reference.. " sufficiently ill bred ".. is made regarding those who are not sufficiently well educated to " mind their P's and Q's " and show some respect for their Elders and Betters.


Just who are you suggesting that you are better than?

I don't recall seeing anyone's post disrespecting you personally. Disagreeing with you certainly, but that's what discussion forums are for.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Sinned » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:47 pm

Thanks Dave, I was going to bring up the better than as well. I don't have betters. People more successful in various realms, more money etc, but better certianly not! I don't even consider the Royal family better. I just imagine that they sit on the loo and s**t like the rest of us!!!!
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby moonshadow » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:16 pm

Sinned wrote:Thanks Dave, I was going to bring up the better than as well. I don't have betters. People more successful in various realms, more money etc, but better certianly not! I don't even consider the Royal family better. I just imagine that they sit on the loo and s**t like the rest of us!!!!


There is a saying.... "unless he hangs his pants on the bed post and jumps in them, we all get dressed the same way... one leg at a time..."

Then again... we wear skirts so I guess that's out the window! :lol:
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Keystone » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:44 pm

Normalizing skirt-wearing requires separating skirts from negative stereotypes of femininity, transgenderism, and homosexuality. When women wear trousers/pants, the public views them as promoting themselves, taking-on the positive character traits of masculinity. When men wear skirts, the public views them as demoting themselves, taking-on negative character traits of femininity. The greater the number of articles of femininity (heels, lip stick etc), the greater the demotion. Add male skirt-wearing to negative stereotypes of transgenderism and homosexuality then the full scope of the challenge can be seen. The closest comparison to the path of normalization I can think of is male ear piercings. In the 1980s, it was once unthinkable that a man with pierced ears would be allowed to wear earrings in professional work environment. Today many business (if not most) permit men to wear earrings. It’s possible that the path to skirt-wearing could be somewhat similar. I do believe, however, that acceptance will be slower because skirts are far more visible and there are very few heteronormative male celebrities to champion the style. For now, I agree with earlier comments that current skirt-wearing numbers are in the parts per million (PPM). That being said, I was surprised to see a man wearing pleated mini skirt and another wearing a kilt (different men, on separate occasions) in a rural supermarket northeast PA. Twice while traveling in Switzerland I saw a youth wearing a skirt. In my opinion, if you want to accelerate skirt-wearing, you should encourage the youth. Like everyone else, I have read about their skirt-wearing protest against prohibitions on wearing shorts in school. If you can get students to start wearing skirts at a young age, they might be more willing to adopt the style as adults.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby dillon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:56 am

I mostly agree with your ideas, Keystone.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Keystone » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:39 am

Thanks Dillon. We have so many prejudices and phobias to overcome to make skirt-wearing commonplace among men. Although skirt sightings are rare, I'm encouraged that I've seen 3 in PA and 2 in Switzerland in the past 2 years. I was disappointed when I visited the Netherlands for a week and saw none. Best regards!
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Keystone » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:59 pm

Regarding kilts: I agree that they are accepted as male attire by nearly everyone in the West and that they don't reflect breaking the rules of gender assigned clothing. For skirt wearers, however, their increasing popularity can serve as a means to an end for skirt acceptability. I'll embrace anything that increases acceptability.
Last edited by Keystone on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby jamesy » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:51 pm

I took delivery of a Sport Kilt last week. I have worn it several times - to a BNI meeting with 55 other people where I got nothing but compliments, to visit clients 1 on 1, to Pacific Fair, the largest shopping mall in my area where three women told me how good I looked. Wore it to another business networking meeting yesterday morning where several women were happy to discuss the positives of men wearing skirts/ kilts.

Apart from one rude guy who made a snide comment about what was underneath it which I dismissed by asking him how his wife would feel if I asked that of her, after which I had a profuse apology, it was all good.

I frequently wear a skirt in public; a couple of weeks ago I was in regional Queensland and for two days straight I wore a grey pencil skirt out and about the town. Nobody cared; not one comment made.

Somehow the stitching on the hem came undone so yesterday, wearing my kilt, I visited a dry cleaner to get it fixed and cleaned. The woman in the shop complimented me on the kilt then said she would have my wife's skirt fixed and cleaned by Thursday. I casually commented "It's my skirt actually".

"Oh, sorry, do you wear it often?"

"Yes"

"How many skirts and kilts do you have?"

"Six"

"Wow, that's gutsy" she replied. "Good on you, nicer than hot stuffy trousers!"

Interesting how some women just get it. My wife is ok with the kilt, just not yet with the skirts. Our agreement is I can wear what I want when she's not home. She is away on business, has been for a week now, and I haven't worn trousers the whole time. I'm sitting here now in a beige knee length skirt with big pockets at the back. Last night I went for a 3km walk around my suburb in a colourful cotton mini skirt. It's just seems totally natural.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Keystone » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:25 pm

Jamesy, it's great to hear all the positive feedback from women. For some reason, positive feedback from women seems more important to me than hearing it from men.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby crfriend » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:55 pm

Keystone wrote:Jamesy, it's great to hear all the positive feedback from women. For some reason, positive feedback from women seems more important to me than hearing it from men.

This is a perfectly normal reaction for a straight man as it affirms that he may still be "desirable" to members of the opposite sex. However, affirmation from men may actually mean that the idea that a guy can wear skirts -- and not just "get away with it", but actually present a compelling figure -- may actually be more important overall.

I've had some great conversations with guys on the matter, and the ones who are willing to overcome the normal "stand-offishness" to chat tend to be genuinely curious and open to new ideas. Yes, it takes guts to look different from the herd in public -- and I point that out -- but by that time, I've likely been already complimented on my bravery. My general admonition on the matter is that, "The worst fear you have is fear itself." which is then amplified by, "Most of the reactions you'll get are entirely similar to the way you reacted to me." (Unless it's been an utterly horrid encounter, that is.)

But back to the conversations with women... I have the most fun with those, because the opportunities for humour or seriousness are so vast; a conversation can go from serious to hilarious and back to serious very quickly, and that opens many doors for all parties to explore the other's minds. There's a running thread at my local between myself and one of the wait-staff on that -- she spied me one summer afternoon wearing a rather pretty black skirt with painted-on peacock-feathers and asked me where I bought it. I was honest about the matter and that I'd bought it in Provincetown when I'd landed there a week or so previously -- and she exclaimed that she'd been there a couple of hours before and didn't buy the same one I had on. Of course I had fun with that one and commented,. "Well you passed up on a nice skirt at a bargain price!" There has been a playful needling about "my skirt" (But it's my skirt!) ever since, which is a hoot.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby dillon » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:51 am

Those are always awkward conversations for me. I’m happy to get a compliment but I really don’t care to discuss my skirt at length. I’d rather feel that my clothing was noticed but not noteworthy, and we could talk about more important things. But I guess I may be too conditioned to male conversation. Clothing is probably a normal thing for women to notice and discuss.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby denimini » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:29 am

Keystone wrote:Thanks Dillon. We have so many prejudices and phobias to overcome to make skirt-wearing commonplace among men. Although skirt sightings are rare, I'm encouraged that I've seen 3 in PA and 2 in Switzerland in the past 2 years. I was disappointed when I visited the Netherlands for a week and saw none. Best regards!

You are lucky. I have never seen another man in a skirt (or even a kilt) in real life, perhaps because I don't frequent highly populated areas very often.
dillon wrote:Those are always awkward conversations for me. I’m happy to get a compliment but I really don’t care to discuss my skirt at length. I’d rather feel that my clothing was noticed but not noteworthy, and we could talk about more important things. But I guess I may be too conditioned to male conversation. Clothing is probably a normal thing for women to notice and discuss.

That is very much how I feel. For skirts to become normalised I don't expect any compliments, comments or conversation; I never got comments about my pants.
I acknowledge that a man in a skirt is a bit of a novelty at present, so on the very rare occasion that there is a comment or query I try and play it down; "yes, they are great in warm weather".
Sort of imagine your response if someone commented that you were wearing shorts ot pants ....... whilst remaining courteous.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Keystone » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:45 pm

crfriend wrote:
Keystone wrote:Jamesy, it's great to hear all the positive feedback from women. For some reason, positive feedback from women seems more important to me than hearing it from men.

This is a perfectly normal reaction for a straight man as it affirms that he may still be "desirable" to members of the opposite sex. However, affirmation from men may actually mean that the idea that a guy can wear skirts -- and not just "get away with it", but actually present a compelling figure -- may actually be more important overall.


I completely agree. As a skirting newbie, I mentally need a form of validation that what I'm doing isn't gay, wierd, transgender, or a simple turn-off from the opposite sex. I guess that's what normalization is all about. I also agree that the ultimate form of validation (normalization) is from my fellow-heterosexual men as they collectively agree upon what is normal. Validation from heterosexual men will be the biggest challenge in that men very rarely (practically never) complement other men regarding how they dress. As far as women are concerned, no female stranger has EVER complimented on my trousers/pants. The two trouser compliments I have received in life was from a seamstress coworker at a retail store who directly complimented me on my a$$ and another women, who is now my wife, making an indirect compliment about the same. 90% of the compliments from women (maybe a total of 30 over my lifetime) are about my choice of ties with the remaining 10% about my shirts. I believe that if skirts are ever normalized, that women will continue to make compliments about how they look as there are more styles to choose that can significantly change the appearance.

I completely agree that the only fear I have is fear itself. I believe everyone at skirtcafe has worked hard to overcome that fear. I think it would be easier for me if I was more of a rebel in my youth. Coming from a conservative family, with a conservative religion, and living in a conservative region adds to the phobia(s). I have to hand it to Moon for his bravery in wearing skirts and dresses in the mountains of southern VA. The movie Deliverance comes to mind. Again, another phobia.
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Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby moonshadow » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:41 pm

dillon wrote:Those are always awkward conversations for me. I’m happy to get a compliment but I really don’t care to discuss my skirt at length. I’d rather feel that my clothing was noticed but not noteworthy, and we could talk about more important things. But I guess I may be too conditioned to male conversation. Clothing is probably a normal thing for women to notice and discuss.


I've gotten to that point. The novelty of skirt wearing for me has long since expired. I still enjoy wearing them, but frankly it's no longer about pushing the envelope, and now I just wear what I want and find practical at the time.

I'd just assume not run it into the ground out and about either.

And that's good because, for me anyway, as I started not to worry so much about making waves and "being seen" it seems I really have started to enjoy the practice of unconventional dress.
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