Brexit

Non-fashion, non-skirt, non-gender discussions. If your post is related to fashion, skirts or gender, please choose one of the forums above for it.

Brexit

Postby FranTastic444 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:53 pm

Sinned wrote:Moon, trainspotter has pretty much said what I would have. To us Europe has interfered too much in little ways. To take an example, Europe wanted, and fought hard to impose, the SI system upon us and ditch the Imperial measures. There was a famous court case when a small trader was brought before court for not offering his goods in kilogrammes. As a result we now have the ludicrous? situation where traders have to display in both kg and lbs/ozs if they want to display Imperial units. To me anyway it was an unnecessary attempt by the European Parliament to impose what wasn't wanted. But then that's the arrogance of the European entity. I accept that Imperial units will die out but should be allowed to as a consequence of the older generation vanishing. This is just one small example of many thousands. And European dictates take priority over the wishes of any sovereign state. Our problem is that we take each edict seriously and implement them irrespective of their logic or need, whereas the French, Italians and Spanish in particular ignore what doesn't suit them.

Bercow has often overstepped the bounds of good Parliamentary protocol and this is just another example. He was expected to step down in 2020 but it is now being said that if he is denied his Peerage he may stay on for the full length of this Parliament. Which may be anything from weeks to 2022. One example of a man exercising power over influence due to an overlarge sense of self importance. For a Tory he does very well supporting Labour ( the opposition ) at times.


It is interesting that Dennis picks up on metrication. Many things have been 'blamed' on the EEC / EU over the years and it is a failing of British politicians to correct such misconceptions that has led to some of the negativity towards the institution. Blue passports is a great example (an EU directive suggested a common burgundy design, but it was not mandatory - for example, Croatia still issues blue passports. Lets not get into the argument about whether the blue was actually nearer black). The term euromyth is used to refer to exaggerated or invented stories about the European Union and the activities of its institutions, such as purportedly nonsensical EU legislation.

Although metrication was ultimately brought to a head by EU regulations, there had been a move away from these antiquated numbering systems for many years before the UK became part of the EEC. Why anyone would prefer imperial numbering / measuring systems is totally beyond me :mrgreen: - due of course to the fact that the (largely) metric system has been in place in the UK since I've been on the planet. More info here.

Although the metric system may not have been wanted by some people, it was for the good of the country. Around the same time (at a time that I was growing up as a kid) there was a lot of other legislation around that was unpopular but was ultimately for the good of the country - drink-driving legislation, mandatory seatbelts, changes to union law, the London financial market 'Big Bang', right to buy, deregulation of the mortgage market, the Human Rights Act? There is a legitimate question about sovereignty, but I take the view that the UK got its own way in the vast majority of cases (the vast majority of regulations 'imposed' upon us by Europe actually make a lot of sense and would probably have been the sort of rules we would have had anyhow) and I'd happily trade what to me anyhow (as a fairly ardent European) is a moot point in light of the benefits that the EU brings.

John Bercow is a self centred, pompous ass. He is a Remainer who has allowed his views to drive his decisions. He will find his place in history for this (something which is probably more important to him than a seat in the Lords).
FranTastic444
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:47 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Brexit

Postby Grok » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:15 pm

Background of European Union reviewed by Peter Zeihan. (zeihan.com).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06N0fPtw7qE
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: Brexit

Postby Grok » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:23 pm

Economics reviewed by Martin Hutchinson.

https://www.theglobalist.com/uk-abandon ... m-instead/
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: Brexit

Postby FranTastic444 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:35 pm

Hi Grok. Two interesting articles. I don't know enough about the video to agree with or to counter with confidence, other than to say the lecture is several years old and the predictions of economic failure in the video did not come to pass.

I think the Brexit of 30 months ago and now is two totally separate beasts. Back then there was talk of easy trade deals and a painless transition - all of the positives with no downsides. The picture now is very different - Ireland and the backstop is a major issue, we have no new trade agreements that are actually signed, many of the promises and statements made by the Brexiteers have been debunked. I can see why people who voted yes initially may now vote no because the reality of a Brexit deal is nothing like what they were sold.

I am against referenda for a multitude of reasons. The Brexit one was badly thought out because it asked a question about an idea / aspiration rather than a concrete plan. The people have spoken and many of them feel cheated because reality has got in the way and prevented what they voted for. I just don't think that there is any shape of Brexit that will get enough support in Parliament to get voted through.

As time goes by the change in demographics mean that even if people did not change their mind on how they voted, Remain would win the day (old people voted overwhelmingly to leave, but are dying - young people who are coming of voting age for the first time voted in larger numbers to remain). I don't think a second referendum on leave / stay would be right, but I do think it is valid to ask the people whether they still want to go ahead with things as they stand given the gulf in the position between now and 30 months ago. If the deal were turned down, part of the quid pro quo for having a second vote would have to be to at least explore some other method of divorce in years to come. Maybe such a situation would lead to Europe to think again how they could keep the UK on site - I know that a lot of people would be swayed by some form of immigration control.

I am the first to admit that there are many problems with Europe - but I would advocate that the best way forward would be to fight from within. I hate the idea of all forms of 'soft' Brexit - be it a Norway type deal or even a Canada type deal. We should be fully in or fully out, not some form of Hokey Cokey ass we have right now (in, but with exemptions) or would have under a soft Brexit (out but in on some things so as to get access to markets)
FranTastic444
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:47 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Brexit

Postby Grok » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:54 pm

Yes, I know the links are somewhat dated-except for a review of the background.
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

General Background

Postby Grok » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:13 pm

A Hard Brexit means that the UK departs the EU without a trade deal. Further trade would be under the rules of the World Trade Organization. ("WTO rules").

A Soft Brexit-whatever the details-is a sort of half way house between full EU membership and a hard Brexit. There is a Norwegian option, and a Swiss option. Also mentioned is Turkey's limited membership in the the EU's custom union (goods exchanged, but not services).

I have seen mentioned a trade deal based on CETA, the Canadian/EU trade pact. As well as the Ukraine/EU Association Agreement.

Resumed EFTA membership has been discussed.
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: Brexit

Postby Grok » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:30 pm

There is the concept of a Continental Partnership, which is supposed to be a hybrid between soft Brexit and hard Brexit. This is highly speculative.
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: Brexit

Postby Kirbstone » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:53 pm

Right now and thankfully for the last 25 years the only indication traveling into the North by road here is the change in signage to one language and distances in miles, also different petrol franchises quoting prices in £ Sterling.

What changes Brexit will bring is our chief concern on this island.

Tom
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
User avatar
Kirbstone
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 4003
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Brexit

Postby r.m.anderson » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:43 am

Haven't seen any new outfits by skirtsdad - perhaps Brexit is causing a tightening of the belt ah er skirt waist
in the search for that holy grail of outfits he wears so well !

Back at the ranch here in the good ole (great) USA the government shutdown continues because our less than
popular elected leader (snicker snicker) can't seem to put the horse in front of the cart to deliver the verdict the
people favor jobs with pay before other issues of lesser importance.
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
User avatar
r.m.anderson
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1874
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:25 pm
Location: Bloomington MN

Re: Brexit

Postby FranTastic444 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:33 pm

Tom - Ireland are in a very precarious position regarding Brexit. Some analysis I read said that any form of Brexit will have serious financial implications upon the country. Isn't May talking about renegotiating the Good Friday agreement as one way of getting around the backstop???

Grok - many thanks for introducing to me the concept of 'continental partnership'. I've read a lot about Brexit since day 1 and this is something that has totally passed me by. I haven't had chance to read this article in detail, but they seem to be advocating an inner and outer circle of Europe with the outer circle containing the likes of Norway, Switzerland and the UK with the core members in the inner circle. There would be a political framework in place that allows for market access without some of the current obligations (freedom of movement being the one that is most of interest to the UK, but would also be of great interest to CH) but with "cooperation on foreign policy, security and, possibly, defence matters".

It seems an interesting idea and I'll definitely do some more reading up on the subject. The only problem I foresee is that it looks like the sort of thing that would take years to line up and implement - not something we could have in place by 29 March. Former Labour leader, Ed Milliband commented upon this option.

RM - tightening of belt / skirt waist :-) :-)

One amusing (but then again, don't they say that the truth is often spoken in jest?) comparison between Trump winning his election and Brexiteers winning their referendum is that both behaved like a dog who chased the car - and caught it. Oh **** what do we do now????
FranTastic444
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:47 am
Location: Boston, MA

UK Trade Forum

Postby Grok » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:45 pm

Last edited by Grok on Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: Brexit

Postby Sinned » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:59 pm

FT444, as to metrication I, and many older folks like me, were used to the Imperial system in our formative years [0]. True, when I did "O" Levels, "A" Levels and later University everything was in S.I. and I sort of coped with that. But in everyday life, buying loose vegetables, working in m.p.h. measuring my height and waist, the Imperial was just so much more familiar. Even now I can tell you that my height is 5'8" and weight 12st 7lb but I couldn't tell you my height and weight in metric if my life depended upon it. So I suppose that I work in both systems. But in reality both systems are arbitrary, it's just that the metric system being based on base 10 is easier in calculations. And I suppose that there are many hundreds of thousands, maybe millions like me. That's why I say that the Imperial system will probably eventually die out. Over here Farenheight is all but dead even though temperatures in that scale mean as much to me as Centipede.

As for Brexit, what will happen, will happed. I refuse to let it worry me as what I think won't change anything. I did think of declaring my little patch of ground a Europe-free zone in which European legislation was null and void but on further thought decided that it was a bit impractical. I voted out and if another referendum was held I would still vote out. The European leaders are making it difficult for us to remove ourselves and they could make it easier but choose not to. It is in their interest to do so to set an example for any of the others to think of taking the exit door. Let's face it, in comparison to say, Greece, our economy is strong and I doubt if Greece could afford the same negotiations we are going through. The leaders are just considering their own position but to me that just strengthens my argument for leaving.

[0] Primary school mainly and certainly prior to Comprehensive, Grammar or Secondary School.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3736
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Proposed Trade Strategy

Postby Grok » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:39 pm

Grok
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: Brexit

Postby crfriend » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:31 pm

Sinned wrote:But in reality both systems are arbitrary, it's just that the metric system being based on base 10 is easier in calculations.

It's not entirely arbitrary -- or at least it wasn't when it was first being proposed.

For instance, take 1 cubic centimetre of distilled water. That weighs precisely one gram and comprises one millilitre of liquid. So, in a stroke, three distinct measures -- length, weight, and volume -- are intimately tied together using an entirely ordinary substance. The original unit of length is related to the circumference of the planet on a meridian (from pole to pole so as to eliminate most of the oblateness), but that's so large that it will seem arbitrary to any ordinary observer (not all that unlike the nautical mile which is one minute of latitude on a meridian).

What's inhibiting the uptake of SI by the general populations of the UK and the US is familiarity with Imperial measures. Miles, pounds, degrees Fahrenheit (which was about as arbitrary as it gets) are the lingua-franca of our countries even as more and more folks gradually take up SI. Temperature: here's another instance where our friend distilled water comes into play. That millilitre of water will freeze at zero Celsius (and expand somewhat as it does, so it occupies more than 1 cc of volume but which still weighs one gram; at 100 degrees C it will vaporise into a gas (steam) and will take up vastly more than 1 cc -- but will still weigh 1 gram if one subtracts the tare weight of the air it's interspersed with.

I've not mounted a detailed analysis of the Brexit situation recently, and it seems like the ground rules are continually changing, so I'm looking in as a somewhat dispassionate outsider. All I can honestly say about the situation is that I wish the best for all parties and that the howlers on both sides would calm down a bit so the quiet voice ot reason might be heard.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10486
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: Brexit

Postby Sinned » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:11 am

I get what you are saying Carl and I've been educated about the how's and why's of measurement but even choosing water as the basis is arbitrary even though it is understandable to choose it as it's so commonly abundant. But water expands as it freezes and at ~ 0 degrees C which is the axis point. Why not choose some other material that is a bit more stable? So yeah, once water is agreed upon the rest of the measures become logical but then so did the Imperial measures at the time they were defined.

The metre and kilogramme are being redefined in terms of physical constants [0]. So now the base material from which measurements ate taken no longer matters which takes the arbitrariness out of it. Here's an article from the National Physical Laboratory about it:

http://www.npl.co.uk/si-units/redefining-the-si-units/

So the standard metre and kilogramme in France will no longer be the standards.

[0] If you can actually understand the redefinitions!!!! Not for easy reading.

How did we get from Brexit to measures in one easy step?
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3736
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Next

Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests