Not about skirts, but an interesting and encouraging article from an unexpected quarter.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09 ... be-claims/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 40516.html
Men suffer more from sexism
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Disaffected.citizen
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Gordon
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
-----------------------------
Namaste,
Gordon
Namaste,
Gordon
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skirtyscot
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
The bit about custody of children is true. The rest of the article is a waste of time.
Keep on skirting,
Alastair
Alastair
Re: Men suffer more from sexism
Not quite everything else. The story about the female MP who assumed the males were rude to her because of her gender, rather than recognising that a) The males are rude to everyone and b) she had failed to earn respect, has resonance. How often have we heard people play the gender (or race) card to avoid admitting to reality?skirtyscot wrote:The bit about custody of children is true. The rest of the article is a waste of time.
Have fun,
Ian.
Do not argue with idiots; they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Cogito ergo sum - Descartes
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum - Ambrose Bierce
Cogito ergo sum - Descartes
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum - Ambrose Bierce
Re: Men suffer more from sexism
I have to admit I was a little disappointed by the article too. Not that I'm disagreeing with it, and it's something that I'm sure needed to be said, and probably not encumbered by things like men in skirts and such.
The part about the female MP mentioned by Milfmog is only in one of the articles - or at least I only recall it being in the second one I read (which might not be the second link). Also an important point.
The part about the female MP mentioned by Milfmog is only in one of the articles - or at least I only recall it being in the second one I read (which might not be the second link). Also an important point.
human@world# ask_question --recursive "By what legitimate authority?"
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Disaffected.citizen
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
I'm not entirely sure that the rest is a waste of time. It challenges the status quo; positive discrimination exists which can be turned around, as stated.skirtyscot wrote:The bit about custody of children is true. The rest of the article is a waste of time.
The main point of the article is that it points up the hidden discrimination within society, the one of which law ignores because its human interface cannot, or chooses no to, see. Like it or not, anti-male discrimination exists, and it is likely because social conditioning results in few actually looking at the problem in rational terms.
You might disagree, but research suggests that within the criminal justice system, in like for like cases, men receive tougher sentences than women. When it comes to domestic violence and abuse, the default position adopted by police is that the female is the victim. And where there is suspicion of the victim being the male in a heterosexual relationship, the support offered or even available is minimal. Consider the phrase "man up"!
But what about when the perpetrator is female? Well, Sarah Champion MP (Shadow Minister for Preventing Abuse and Domestic Violence) has been in the news recently. Contrast her case with that of David Ruffley MP. His position was "untenable", she enjoys the full support of her party!
In the health system, there are generally more resources available to "women's issues"; particularly in the area of mental health. I think suicide statistics are relevant here.
In the family courts it is a fairly safe bet that the woman will get custody, as the article states; she is also likely to remain in the house, whilst he has to find accommodation, no doubt also has to pay maintenance at a time of increase pressure on his finance as a result of the drastic changes to his circumstances. The maintenance calculation takes no account of subsistence level expenses and, if they are ordered the UK CMA (previously CSA) it is one of the few civil charges for which you can be imprisoned for non-payment. Compare that to the penalty (and the harm to the child/children) for not allowing contact.
If you don't believe the above, please feel free to undertake some research and present your thesis to refute mine. If you consider it to be of little concern, take a moment to think (particularly those of you with non-supportive partners or wives) about the freedoms and support the women you know enjoy compared to yours.
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moonshadow
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
This being a U.K. article won't have much effect on the injustices taking hold over here stateside.
I have read somewhere that more men are avoiding marriage these days then ever before. I'd venture a guess that there is just too much risk for the man involved.
Although it's important to note that things are CONSIDERABLY better than they were in the "good old days".
I have come to find out that it wasn't long ago, as in up until the early 1980's and even beyond is some court cases, that the man was indeed considered the "head" of the household, the provider, the bread winner, "father knows best" and all that stuff.
That was was the way of it up until the mid twentieth century. It was an easy enough system to function in, divorces were hard to get, women couldn't hold credit cards, or engage in many other practices a man could. When a divorce DID happen, naturally the woman was indeed left with no means to take care of herself as the economical world wasn't very kind to women prior to the 1960's. Thus courts would take a great deal of pity on women in divorce proceedings, especially if the man screwed up.
My grandmother hardly worked a day in her life outside of the home. Which is NOT to say she didn't work. No, she worked her ass off, just at home. She raised five children in an old run down house where we're from. Dad tells me stories of no running water, chopping wood for the winter, gardening NOT as a hobby but as a genuine means of sustenance. There were no microwave dinners, suppers took all day to prepare, and they never ate breakfast cereal, it was always a full breakfast including bacon, eggs, sausage, etc. Some of that continued into my life as I recall her still making fried eggs and sausage links for my step-grandfather up until he died in the late 1990's.
Her husband, my grandfather died before I was born in the mid 70's. The story goes that when he died, he basically left her not knowing a thing about how to survive in the world. The woman had never even drove a car. The five kids were mostly grown by then, I believe the youngest might have been in his mid teens. My father was in his late teens/early twenties. Probably the biggest thing that saved her was most of her kids were old enough to help her along. She did get her drivers license and drove a little bit, but she was terrified of the practice and avoided driving at all cost. As the stories go, she was one of those that would putz along at about 30MPH below the speed limit with her hands clutching the steering wheel for dear life! She also had to find a job. I don't remember where she worked, but I don't think it lasted very long as I understand I believe the kids took care of her until she met Gordon, her late husband (the one I knew).
Can you imagine being a upper 40's woman having NEVER held a job, drove a car, lived in the hills your whole life, never having any real exposure to the world outside your home and suddenly BAM.... your husband... the one who kept the world at the door keels over with a heart attack! The story goes when he died, she had to be taken to the hospital and given something to calm her nerves.
Now imagine this husband just runs out on you, leaving you with the kids, and having no idea how to make it out there, PLUS living in a society where women still can't contract on many things such as debt, and yes, there REALLY was a pay gap in those days!
There are other stories I've been told that I'm not going to mention here as both of them are deceased now and there is really no reason to dig up old bones, but suffice it to say... life was hard for women like my grandmother. The fact that she lived past 80 surprises me.
Everything I wrote above is why we have/had courts that favor women when a marriage does go south. In those day's I'll agree that life sucked for women, and not so much for men. There needed to be major reformations in women's rights and liberation....
Enter the 1960s and 1970s....
Most of us know the many stories of the 70's feminist who had "had enough!", set their bras on fire, started demanding fair and equal treatment and slowly legislation began to turn the tide for the American woman.
During the late 70's, all of the 80's, and a good part of the 90's, American women had the best of both worlds in my opinion. They had laws in place that REQUIRED fair and equal treatment in virtually all areas of commerce, trade, employment, residence, etc AND old laws were still in place that said that if all else fails it was a "mans place to take care of a woman if the marriage failed". It was at this point that women began to make more demands, be more disagreeable, and become more arrogant. Now I'm NOT saying that these characteristics weren't justified, nor am I judging or pointing the finger. However these attributes DID make marriages fall apart at record rates, and when they did, the MAN paid out the nose...
It was a win-win for women! However, then something happened, with great freedom comes great responsibility. When my father and mother split when I was 4 (1985), mom got custody... hands down. She didn't even have to try. Dad paid child support. Now my mother is a good woman, she's made some mistakes that I won't go into here, but all told I feel blessed to have had her for a mother. However by the time I was a late teenager in the late 90's I began to see more and more stories of MEN gaining custody.
Case in point, my mother's late husband (the one who died in January) had a daughter who was about my age. When mom met Benny (her late husband) Benny was in the process of calling it quits with his wife who was the mother of their child.
Benny got custody in a walk!
HUH??? But wait... THIS NEVER HAPPENS... does it?
Had to be a legal fluke right?
Nope, Benny had a brother who separated form his wife a few years later and guess what... HE GOT CUSTODY OF HIS KIDS!
More and more in my life from the late 90's onward I began to hear stories of men gaining custody of their children....
Why???
The answer was clear when you look at the entire story. During the last 30 years, many women didn't realize that they have to act like decent people. They just can't run around all wild and free without consequences. They wanted to play in a "man's world" and they got it! Many of them did just fine and became fine respectable women, but every once in a while, you find one that was just sorry has hell and even the courts agreed that it's for the best if dad takes the kids.
Sometimes the dad is also sorry as hell, and that's when the state steps in and we have record number of children under the care of the state than ever before.
Courts are realizing that women can indeed make it. Those who refuse are generally just regarded as sorry. Normally these days the only time alimony is awarded is if there is a LARGE difference in the amount of pay that the husband and wife make. Such as he makes 100k per year and she's a homemaker. Often times alimony isn't awarded unless the marriage is long standing, as in over 10 years. Even when it is, it's often a very small marginal amount for a fixed number of years. I recall one example someone told me, he had to pay his ex $200 per month for 2 years, after than he's home free. The reason for this was "to give the woman time to get on her feet".
In the current day, it is not unheard of for the man to win alimony. While still unlikely, as women begin making more and more money outside of the home, many courts are awarding it in some circumstances.
I believe it's getting better. And I believe a lot of it is reasonable people understand that both women and men have pretty much the same potential in these days. Courts are starting to realize that women can indeed be vindictive, and in many cases men have gotten the short end of the stick in many classic divorce proceedings. It's also a matter of logic, if the system makes involvement with a woman a VERY risky matter, then men will avoid it, and the system of society will break down. I believe we are seeing a lot of that sentiment in current affairs with record numbers of men avoiding marriage all together, in addition with more and more men realizing that "they just don't like women", and claiming to be at least bisexual, and having romantic relationships with other (perhaps feminine) men because frankly there is little LEGAL risk in these matters.
Further, as a fun side note: It will be interesting to see how our American family law system handles homosexual divorce, when it's two men or two women splitting.... who gets the house?
We still have a way to go though, there is still somewhat of a pay gap between men and women in some industries. But women are afforded better health care than men generally. Health insurance is less expensive for women... which is interesting because they visit the doctor more.
Maybe it's because men still don't live as long so we don't pay in as much?? Car insurance is cheaper for women, which also baffles me as I see idiot women drivers all the time! Many times, when I spot a VERY aggressive driver on the road, it turns out to be a woman. And of course, though it is possible for a woman to loose in a divorce case... that woman has to be pretty damn bad.
And of course there is the media, and society in general which still views woman as the "fairer sex". Generally the media portrays women as smarter, more witty, and better at doing virtually anything, where as men are often viewed and stereotyped as bumbling buffons that can't add 2+2, chug beer, only care about sports, slobby, and of course are waaaaaaaaaay too shallow to even THINK about wearing anything resembling a SKIRT!
Wha.... where-a-skirt??? Naaww... I'MMA MAN!
I'd write more... but I have to go to work. *baaaaaaahhhh*
Skirt comes off... trousers go on, to deal with a store who doesn't know how to use a frying pan to grill a burger.
I have read somewhere that more men are avoiding marriage these days then ever before. I'd venture a guess that there is just too much risk for the man involved.
Although it's important to note that things are CONSIDERABLY better than they were in the "good old days".
I have come to find out that it wasn't long ago, as in up until the early 1980's and even beyond is some court cases, that the man was indeed considered the "head" of the household, the provider, the bread winner, "father knows best" and all that stuff.
That was was the way of it up until the mid twentieth century. It was an easy enough system to function in, divorces were hard to get, women couldn't hold credit cards, or engage in many other practices a man could. When a divorce DID happen, naturally the woman was indeed left with no means to take care of herself as the economical world wasn't very kind to women prior to the 1960's. Thus courts would take a great deal of pity on women in divorce proceedings, especially if the man screwed up.
My grandmother hardly worked a day in her life outside of the home. Which is NOT to say she didn't work. No, she worked her ass off, just at home. She raised five children in an old run down house where we're from. Dad tells me stories of no running water, chopping wood for the winter, gardening NOT as a hobby but as a genuine means of sustenance. There were no microwave dinners, suppers took all day to prepare, and they never ate breakfast cereal, it was always a full breakfast including bacon, eggs, sausage, etc. Some of that continued into my life as I recall her still making fried eggs and sausage links for my step-grandfather up until he died in the late 1990's.
Her husband, my grandfather died before I was born in the mid 70's. The story goes that when he died, he basically left her not knowing a thing about how to survive in the world. The woman had never even drove a car. The five kids were mostly grown by then, I believe the youngest might have been in his mid teens. My father was in his late teens/early twenties. Probably the biggest thing that saved her was most of her kids were old enough to help her along. She did get her drivers license and drove a little bit, but she was terrified of the practice and avoided driving at all cost. As the stories go, she was one of those that would putz along at about 30MPH below the speed limit with her hands clutching the steering wheel for dear life! She also had to find a job. I don't remember where she worked, but I don't think it lasted very long as I understand I believe the kids took care of her until she met Gordon, her late husband (the one I knew).
Can you imagine being a upper 40's woman having NEVER held a job, drove a car, lived in the hills your whole life, never having any real exposure to the world outside your home and suddenly BAM.... your husband... the one who kept the world at the door keels over with a heart attack! The story goes when he died, she had to be taken to the hospital and given something to calm her nerves.
Now imagine this husband just runs out on you, leaving you with the kids, and having no idea how to make it out there, PLUS living in a society where women still can't contract on many things such as debt, and yes, there REALLY was a pay gap in those days!
There are other stories I've been told that I'm not going to mention here as both of them are deceased now and there is really no reason to dig up old bones, but suffice it to say... life was hard for women like my grandmother. The fact that she lived past 80 surprises me.
Everything I wrote above is why we have/had courts that favor women when a marriage does go south. In those day's I'll agree that life sucked for women, and not so much for men. There needed to be major reformations in women's rights and liberation....
Enter the 1960s and 1970s....
Most of us know the many stories of the 70's feminist who had "had enough!", set their bras on fire, started demanding fair and equal treatment and slowly legislation began to turn the tide for the American woman.
During the late 70's, all of the 80's, and a good part of the 90's, American women had the best of both worlds in my opinion. They had laws in place that REQUIRED fair and equal treatment in virtually all areas of commerce, trade, employment, residence, etc AND old laws were still in place that said that if all else fails it was a "mans place to take care of a woman if the marriage failed". It was at this point that women began to make more demands, be more disagreeable, and become more arrogant. Now I'm NOT saying that these characteristics weren't justified, nor am I judging or pointing the finger. However these attributes DID make marriages fall apart at record rates, and when they did, the MAN paid out the nose...
It was a win-win for women! However, then something happened, with great freedom comes great responsibility. When my father and mother split when I was 4 (1985), mom got custody... hands down. She didn't even have to try. Dad paid child support. Now my mother is a good woman, she's made some mistakes that I won't go into here, but all told I feel blessed to have had her for a mother. However by the time I was a late teenager in the late 90's I began to see more and more stories of MEN gaining custody.
Case in point, my mother's late husband (the one who died in January) had a daughter who was about my age. When mom met Benny (her late husband) Benny was in the process of calling it quits with his wife who was the mother of their child.
Benny got custody in a walk!
HUH??? But wait... THIS NEVER HAPPENS... does it?
Had to be a legal fluke right?Nope, Benny had a brother who separated form his wife a few years later and guess what... HE GOT CUSTODY OF HIS KIDS!
More and more in my life from the late 90's onward I began to hear stories of men gaining custody of their children....
Why???
The answer was clear when you look at the entire story. During the last 30 years, many women didn't realize that they have to act like decent people. They just can't run around all wild and free without consequences. They wanted to play in a "man's world" and they got it! Many of them did just fine and became fine respectable women, but every once in a while, you find one that was just sorry has hell and even the courts agreed that it's for the best if dad takes the kids.
Sometimes the dad is also sorry as hell, and that's when the state steps in and we have record number of children under the care of the state than ever before.
Courts are realizing that women can indeed make it. Those who refuse are generally just regarded as sorry. Normally these days the only time alimony is awarded is if there is a LARGE difference in the amount of pay that the husband and wife make. Such as he makes 100k per year and she's a homemaker. Often times alimony isn't awarded unless the marriage is long standing, as in over 10 years. Even when it is, it's often a very small marginal amount for a fixed number of years. I recall one example someone told me, he had to pay his ex $200 per month for 2 years, after than he's home free. The reason for this was "to give the woman time to get on her feet".
In the current day, it is not unheard of for the man to win alimony. While still unlikely, as women begin making more and more money outside of the home, many courts are awarding it in some circumstances.
I believe it's getting better. And I believe a lot of it is reasonable people understand that both women and men have pretty much the same potential in these days. Courts are starting to realize that women can indeed be vindictive, and in many cases men have gotten the short end of the stick in many classic divorce proceedings. It's also a matter of logic, if the system makes involvement with a woman a VERY risky matter, then men will avoid it, and the system of society will break down. I believe we are seeing a lot of that sentiment in current affairs with record numbers of men avoiding marriage all together, in addition with more and more men realizing that "they just don't like women", and claiming to be at least bisexual, and having romantic relationships with other (perhaps feminine) men because frankly there is little LEGAL risk in these matters.
Further, as a fun side note: It will be interesting to see how our American family law system handles homosexual divorce, when it's two men or two women splitting.... who gets the house?
We still have a way to go though, there is still somewhat of a pay gap between men and women in some industries. But women are afforded better health care than men generally. Health insurance is less expensive for women... which is interesting because they visit the doctor more.
Maybe it's because men still don't live as long so we don't pay in as much?? Car insurance is cheaper for women, which also baffles me as I see idiot women drivers all the time! Many times, when I spot a VERY aggressive driver on the road, it turns out to be a woman. And of course, though it is possible for a woman to loose in a divorce case... that woman has to be pretty damn bad.And of course there is the media, and society in general which still views woman as the "fairer sex". Generally the media portrays women as smarter, more witty, and better at doing virtually anything, where as men are often viewed and stereotyped as bumbling buffons that can't add 2+2, chug beer, only care about sports, slobby, and of course are waaaaaaaaaay too shallow to even THINK about wearing anything resembling a SKIRT!
Wha.... where-a-skirt??? Naaww... I'MMA MAN!
I'd write more... but I have to go to work. *baaaaaaahhhh*
Skirt comes off... trousers go on, to deal with a store who doesn't know how to use a frying pan to grill a burger.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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skirtyscot
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
Dis.cit, I don't dispute anything you say. The article was a bit feeble, that's all.
Keep on skirting,
Alastair
Alastair
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skirtyscot
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
Moonshadow, have you been on a typing course? It would take about 2 hours to type all that. Even if I wasn't doing it one-fingered on my phone.
Keep on skirting,
Alastair
Alastair
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Disaffected.citizen
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
Ah, I misunderstood your comment. I concur with your view in those terms.skirtyscot wrote:Dis.cit, I don't dispute anything you say. The article was a bit feeble, that's all.
Moonshadow, I'm digesting your missive
Last edited by Disaffected.citizen on Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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moonshadow
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
.skirtyscot wrote:Moonshadow, have you been on a typing course? It would take about 2 hours to type all that. Even if I wasn't doing it one-fingered on my phone.
And that doesn't even include the part I forgot to touch on regarding marital debt! Stupid phone went off and wrecked my train of thought....
... to be continubed...
Oh and I was mostly self taught on an IBM selectric that mom gave me from one of her jobs.
I loved to type on that thing. The sound of a typewritter hammer is like rain on a tin roof to me.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
Re: Men suffer more from sexism
Nice enough on rare occasion, but quickly becomes deafening if the rain is hard, and one cannot hold a proper conversation under one.moonshadow wrote:The sound of a typewritter hammer is like rain on a tin roof to me.
Seriously, I remember tying on typewriters, though surely less than you, and enjoying it. Still, for practical purposes, I like the easy correction with a computer.
human@world# ask_question --recursive "By what legitimate authority?"
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crfriend
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
Not to mention that you forgot to mention the overt double-standards in the US criminal system which routinely tolerates entirely false accusations of men by women which can cause the man to lose his freedom or even his life (nevermind wealth) -- and even where absolute acquittals are found by law the woman never faces the possibility of coming under the charge of even "filing a false report" much less a formal charge of perjury,moonshadow wrote:And that doesn't even include the part I forgot to touch on regarding marital debt!
Yes, the system is stacked -- and it's not in our favour boys.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
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Disaffected.citizen
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Re: Men suffer more from sexism
The UK "criminal justice" system is similarlycrfriend wrote:Not to mention that you forgot to mention the overt double-standards in the US criminal system which routinely tolerates entirely false accusations of men by women which can cause the man to lose his freedom or even his life (nevermind wealth) -- and even where absolute acquittals are found by law the woman never faces the possibility of coming under the charge of even "filing a false report" much less a formal charge of perjury,moonshadow wrote:And that doesn't even include the part I forgot to touch on regarding marital debt!
Yes, the system is stacked -- and it's not in our favour boys.
Is it conceivable that part of the problem is the mindset of the front line enforcement agencies? It takes a certain "type" with an unwaivering belief in the indoctrinated "rulebook" for right/wrong; couple that with a general "alpha" (bully?) typeset, who may have seen some of the worst of society and adopts a worst case scenario to any given situation, and you have a recipe for automatic bias and misapplication of truth.
A properly conducted investigation rarely occurs; evidence is often missed or suppressed.
And the aftermath differs, too. If "she" is prosecuted, afterwards there is a general allowance for a second chance; whereas "he" suffers the consequences for the rest of his life.
Just a thought.
Re: Men suffer more from sexism
If you have experienced what is described, it's but a waste of time. Trying to have the mother of the forcefully alianated child prosecuted is just about impossible if you don't now the law nor jurispudence, you will be sent home and the mother will not be penalized. That the child is psychological manipulated by the mother is of no interest. Police will state that they have involved behavoural experts, but if you get the futher info such is not the case. the organisations as Justice4fathers, Papa en Colère, Dwaze Vaders try to amend the situation but as most judges in family court are women.... The international family law conferences are mostly visited by women. national and international womens lib organisations are well entwined. In law school there are specilisations are womens rights but no mens rights.skirtyscot wrote:The bit about custody of children is true. The rest of the article is a waste of time.
But in essence what she says is that women have all rights and won't grant men the same rights. They have succeeded in profiling women as the lesser but basically men did the work in the past in order to provide for women. In essence how many times is the topic of non-acceptance by the skirted partner not brought forward here?
Recently I received a series of pictures of restrooms. In my opinion the last one of the swerie was the best, the text: "men go to the left as women are always right".