As girly as it gets

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As girly as it gets

Postby Juan » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:15 pm

Most probaly these looks'll never reach the "mainstream" but, what the heck! That's precisely what creative artist are supposed to do: push the envelope a bit.

I've selected only those pics depicting garments that, in my opinion, could be actually worne by men in "real life". Other images of the show are on the brink of "cross-dressing", but equally beautiful. (The complete gallery is at "The Fashion Spot": http://forums.thefashionspot.com/showpo ... tcount=693 ) Why not? Isn't blurring the frontiers between the sexes one of art's ever-reviving efforts since ancient times?

Artist Solve Sundsbo photographed models Josh Bitelli, Luke Worrall, and Danny Fox ("Three boys" is actually the collection's name) styled by Katie Grand.
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby Sarongman » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:11 pm

The first looks like it could be practical in a kilt style and, may even fall well between the knees when sitting. The next two, well eeeeeyuk is my personal opinion. Maybe the 'authorities' should outfit dangerous felons in them as a convenient alternative to fetters :P
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby crfriend » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:15 am

I may be alone in this regard, but somehow I find the imagery above slightly disturbing, and I can't quite put my finger on why. But my primary reaction was one of visceral recoil. Introspection is required.
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby Since1982 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:58 am

Makeup and sticky lipstick maybe? :hide:
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby Juan » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:17 pm

Yes, I agree, Sarongman: the first one is actually a traditional, "normal" kilt, except perhaps for the way it's been pleated (and those pleats should make it comfortable to wear and give the garment a nice look). The other two will probably never be too popular among "unfettered" men. :lol:

Crfriend: You say you find the images disturbing. Well, I posted precisely the ones that I thought were less troubling, keeping in mind that this forum, as has so clearly been stated, is not about "cross-dressing". The other photographs posted at The Fashion Spot are even more androgynous, featuring wigs, heavy makeup and in one of them even a bra. Despite that, if you asked me, none of them is about crossdressing at all, given that the artist's intention is not, to my eyes, to have the models look like proper "femmes", but something like "feminine boys" :?: without concealing their gender identity. Anyways, the border line does get blurry at times, and, since I didn't want to start a debate here, I put on the less disputable ones.
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby JRMILLER » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:35 pm

Once again, the male models just don't look very happy or joyful in their new clothes. Can't help wonder what "they" think about what they are wearing!

I find the look disturbing too, but that's just me.
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby r1g0r » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:51 pm

well as is the case with ANY short skirt, ya gotta have the legs for it!

i can only wear short skirts with opaque tights, preferrably patterned ones. so to me, those are too short.

however, if i did have "the legs", i'd love to wear the second one! wow, that's sexy! 8)

not him, the skirt
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby Since1982 » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:31 am

Carl said: I may be alone in this regard, but somehow I find the imagery above slightly disturbing, and I can't quite put my finger on why. But my primary reaction was one of visceral recoil. Introspection is required.


After much introspective thought, not thinking of these images as Crossdressers is very difficult. Ok, for the time being I'll consider them to be modeling new styles and fashions for MEN. IF so, where is the MALE at? # 2 has a very tight skirt on, he is either "tucked" or physically impaired. IF he's physically impaired then how did he get a modeling job? If tucked, that's a absolute sign of crossdressing. If he's really modeling MEN'S clothes of the future, there should be some bump or sign of male plumbing existing there.

Carl, you're not alone. 8)
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby imadube » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:10 pm

Well here's my two cents
Number 1
Looks good, model seems to say he's better doing some activity and is now resting. Good manly look with the pleats. Like the skirt.
Number 2
Way too obvious Croos Dresser look - disturbingly Non-manly. Skirt is worn to appear girly as mentioned above - did they tuck something away?
Can go my life time without that skirt.
Number 3
Model looks like he is the "dress-up doll" for his sister and her friends to play with. Maybe he lost a bet with his buddies. Not going for a manly look but not full out cross dressing, still a bit disturbing. Skirt realy dosen't do it for me, too much something.

These are of course my opinions and mine alone.
Coming from the middle U.S. and living where I am "the pervert" due to my skirts - we (I) really need to shy away from anything girly inorder for the skirting to be accepted as other then cross dressing and girly.
Personally I have enough trouble with my crappy life as it is and these type male skirted examples really makes me question if I shouldn't just not do it at all. Depression is ones self can be a powerful emotion and can really affect the thought proccess (even with the meds).
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby Juan » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:52 pm

JR: Of course, there's no way to know what the models might be thinking as they pose. It also true that in that profession you have to get into whatever attire is presented to you, no matter wether you like it or not. But, on the ther hand, models are very rigorously cast according to their capacity of conveying any given expression, so it is quite likely that a "distant" or "vague" or even "unadjusted" gesture was precisely what was asked from them. In other pics from this collection, models look more like they're enjoying themselves, and precisely in those I didn't post: the most "androgynous" ones.

r1g0r: Yes, I agree... good legs are a must for short skirts in both sexes, so, let's start working out!

Since 1982: Your "borderline" is very well defined and quite reasonable: if it's manly, it should have space for your male parts, and, one should add, there's no need for space for (or fillings to replace) female parts... anything other than that is crossdressing. Sounds sensible. Did I get it right? Does anyone else agree? My boundaries are not quite so clear: I did have to "tuck-in" my parts a bit to fit into some pants I used to buy from the ladies section, and still I had no intentions of "passing" as a woman or even to look like one: I simply loved the style of those garments... male pants are never so graceful. Nowadays I don't face that problem any more: I simply copy the style and sew my own trousers (only with some more space around the crotch area! :lol: )

Imadube: I really had no intention of "disturbing" anyone. Let alone discouraging you of wearing whatever you fancy! There is no problem with you, Imadube: you already have to deal with being called a "pervert" in a conservative environment. I, on the other hand, live surrounded by artists, designers, and all sorts of "weird", "crazy" people (most of my male friends are gay) and, although I'm the only man wearing skirts all the time, my environment is actually "male-skirt-friendly". Please understand: I beg you to forgive me if my unrestrained "fashion freedom" might cause you any distress. Now, that being said, I wonder, what makes you label something as "non-manly"? Why does it upset you?

As for the pics, they were only, lets call them, "try outs" by fashion people which, like any other pilot experiments, most probably will never reach the market. No need to fear: you'll never have to wear that! :lol: From the beginning of civilization, artists and other creative people have always gone way beyond the accepted limits and, yes, sometimes they do take things too far. On the other hand, they reflect the general tendencies of their times. Lets face it, in our own times, gender concepts have been constantly changing and evolving (in a positive way, I think). As females emancipate and take over garments traditionally atributed to men, it is only natural for us guys to start borrowing garbs from their closets. How far can we get without loosing our "manliness" is anyones guess.

I personally don't think girls are loosing their feminity as they show themselves assertive and commanding in the corporate world in a three-piece suit , or exercising their authority as a female-cop, or even their strength in a contruction worker's overall. Think about it: there's no way a woman can crossdress anymore. She can wear whatever she pleases from either side of the aisle! Should we loose our manliness if we conveyed "fragility" or "creativity" in our outerware? And, most importantly, how far can we go?

I don't have the answer. But some designers (like Marc Jacobs, under these lines) are bringing not only skirts to their runways, but also other garments thought of as "girly" by traditional standards. Will we end up in a world with all guys looking like sissies? I don't think so. Current women don't look like "tomboys" to us, but they would have to former generations. We will eventually reach a balance (and hopefully, a closer approach and a better understanding between the sexes). :wink:

Pascual.png


Jacob's and other designers' bold ventures will slowly open people's minds about us wearing skirts.

Will the day arrive when the term "cross-dressing" will disappear altogether? When anyone can wear anything, no matter how high the heel and how frilly the dress? I'd love that, but I'm afraid it'll never happen. But I'm confident our society at large will be more respectful about our choices.
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby imadube » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:17 pm

No offence.
No comments here caused me any distress - it comes from bad home/work situation. What is trouble is that "IF" the people around here would even venture onto the net and look up men in skirts after tormenting me, they would find such photo's as designers have and then say "well, that's it the guy must be gay".

As for the designers - they do not reflect real street close idea's. They always seem to have the art in mind instead of close themselves. Almost all the big runway shows ha ve designs everyday people will not wear nor could afford.
I read somewhere that Jacobs said he loves wearing skirts but Will NOT try to sell a line for men. So, if he has no faith in it then....????.......
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby Since1982 » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:47 pm

I still have a small problem with the "tucking" stuff. I can only come up with 2 reasons to tuck. 1. The person is trying to pass as a woman who has no male parts. 2. The person is ashamed of his male parts, if that's so, we're really getting back to number 1...The person doesn't want anyone knowing he's a man. I've seen quite a few VERY masculine looking, flat chested females, so you can't really tell if it's a man or a woman if you can't see any male parts bulge in front. That's just my opinion and not cast in stone. I'm not judging anyone. Just making my opinion known. 8)
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby crfriend » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:34 pm

What follows here is personal opinion, and does not necessarily represent any policy standpoint of SkirtCafe; it is the work of an individual contributor.

I think what got me going was the lack of visual cues that allow one to easily differentiate male from female. Androgeny, done well, can be aesthetically interesting; however it's extraordinarily difficult to do well, which leads to the other classification I use, and that's where the imagery presented above fir for me, and that's the "what the {bleep}?" reaction where I cannot ascertain precisely what I'm looking at in a couple seconds' time.

On tucking: I can excuse that if one has a garment that they really like and not repositioning "the bits" produces something that might be objectionable -- however, this can create problems with other elements of the outfit, and care -- in my opinion -- should be taken not to confuse the casual observer. As others have mentioned, the lack of something where something can be reasonably expected has the power to confuse.

There was also the matter of hairstyle; I've never seen such styles on men. That doesn't mean that there aren't a few guys who sport styles like that, but that in my little part of the world men don't have teased runaway mops The hair on the first picture -- and this one didn't rattle me in the least -- works, and the facial features superficially resemble the young H. P. Lovecraft.

It was a conjunction of the pose, the hair, the makeup, and the transparent fabrics in use on the second one that pushed too many buttons at once; whilst I could likely get away with an outfit as in the first image, I would never (nor could I out of self-respect) pull something like the second one off.

The third was a combination of the model's expression and the way the fabrics work on his body; the impression I immediately received was one of threat behaviour (the drugged-out vacant look usually means trouble), and that triggered the usual defensive reflexive thought processes..

The last two are almost certainly dresses -- or at least they appear to be -- and that brings with it a certain amount of risk in having the models not look ridiculous. From a personal perspective, the garments are too tight; while a small subset of the mail population could carry the look well a vastly larger subset would likely look comical or worse.
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby r1g0r » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:50 am

juan:

my problem with my legs isn't needing to workout, it's that my knees look like an apple stuffed into a garden hose. when i look down, they look okay. when i look in the mirror, i look like big bird.

to all:

i think we've a problem with the whole "androgynous look". it's supposed to have elements of both male and female, a blurring & blending.

most of the "androgynous looks" i've seen in photos are actually just the removal of 90-100% of the male characteristics, thus just creating a feminized male. most simply look homosexual at first glance.

i've no problem with homosexuality, but it's NOT the aim of true androgyny. if you remember chris (later kris) from the other skirt board (whose name escapes me at the moment), he was a good example of androgyny. the male beard, the feminine braids and flowers in the hair. the feminine skirts, the masculine boots.

that's androgyny!
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Re: As girly as it gets

Postby Juan » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:13 pm

Oops! I'd never had imagined that Mr. Sunsbo's pictures would cause all this turmoil here! Well, I guess it's interesting to note how diverse perceptions can be, even among a group of men sharing a common interest. In this case "male skirts" and "male fashion freedom".

SolveSundsboPhotography001.jpg


r1g0r wrote:most of the "androgynous looks" i've seen in photos are actually just the removal of 90-100% of the male characteristics, thus just creating a feminized male. most simply look homosexual at first glance.


I'n not sure what "true andronygy" is, r1g0r. Maybe I got the "label" wrong; maybe I shouldn't have called these young men "androgynous", but rather "feminized males". Maybe I am a "feminized male" myself! And perhaps that 10% of "unremoved male characteristics" is represented by my beard and by the fact that I don't move in any effeminate way (at least that's what I think, maybe I'm wrong in that perception as well) :oops:

I have no intention of proclaiming myself in favor or against "androgyny", "homosexuality" or anything else. I just wanted to share with you some images I've stumbled upon of fashions that are undeniably unconventional. The forum is, after all, about alternative fashions for men. I find them asthetically beautiful and artistically valuable, and I'm aware that, like most models presented on runways nowadays, they will most probably never reach the streets.

For me, that remaining "10% or less of manliness" or the fact that "biological gender" remains unconcealed are enough to spare them being labelled as "cross-dressers". But I can see that some of you have more rigorous parameters. I wonder if that kind of photographs are welcome in this forum after all. I should be more careful in the future.

As for "feminization" of males, I wonder ... how many items can you borrow from the female wardrobe before you become "feminized"?

Juan wrote:As for the designers - they do not reflect real street close idea's. They always seem to have the art in mind instead of close themselves. Almost all the big runway shows ha ve designs everyday people will not wear nor could afford.


That is entirely true, Imadube. But, on the other hand:

1. A "fashion show" is just that: a "show", a preformance. And performances (plays, dance, music) have an element of "evasion" in them. Would you attend a "show" or an entertainment of any kind in which they represented exactly the very same scenes you see in your everyday life? I bet you'd find it boring. What about a runway were they showed the very same outfits you see on your co-workers every sigle day? It'll bore me to death! A runway should certainly propose new designs, but may also be provocative and it must let in a certain amount of spectacularity.

2. All creative people have at a certain point broken the rules. In order to innovate, designers have to experiment as much as the market permits. And the more audacious designs will probably not be the most popular.

I hope you're doing better in your personal life!

Thank you all for commenting! It has been quite insightful!

Juan
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