Clothing as an Outward Expression

[Peter v]

John,
Have you talked to your wife about what bothers her about your skirt wearing?

Elsewhere in this forum, I posted some reasons why women might object to skirt wearing by their spouses.

Sapphire, ...do you look anything like you're avatar cat? Reading what you say, I can see you in that likeness, wise and loving, just as cats are ( and sometimes unpredictable )

It is indeed very important to duscuss the skirt issue, the, our AWAKENING , because it is I believe deeper, more meeningful than the material we wear around our waist, with our partners, but unfortunately men are generally not so good in the emotional talking business.

Peter v

[Peter v]

Having read further, I see that JRMiller, John is treading on thin ice.

He is of course not the only one. Here in the Netherlands, I know a few men with actically identical problems, not to mention other forum members of the dutch skirting forum I am a member of.

Unfortunately John's skirt wearing, or breaking with convention, as I believe it is, has brought out a flaw in his wife's outlook on life. That wasn't an issue until he opened it up. John has no blame, as none of us have when we open our eyes and become more our true selves. But by doing so can put a light on a difference in vieuw point on these matters.
This should be dealt with very delicately. But not be put away. Without getting to the root of the ""problem"" it may not change, become an aggrivation and form a wedge, between the two, if you are unlucky.

How to deal with it? Getting each to be able to get their inner feelings out in words, which is not always easy, and may require outside professional help not because any one is sick, but to get to and resolve the in our eyes mis understanding about men with their new found selves.

It may help if John and his wife could talk to other couples where the man wears skirts, and the wife sees it in a sober, understanding way.

There may be underlying reasons for any body to be unwilling to accept certain things, and they should be addressed profesionaly, only how do you know what is actually going on?
It may just be the way john's wife thinks. Period.

As I said, this unfortunate situation is an example of many others, and is very normal to happen. We have yet to be able to give professional help at a low threshhold, for example through this very forum.

Reading things like, "when she is out, I then can...."
I can go ALONE
and so on, that must be very lonely, in those situations, "You go and do what you like! As long as I don't see you!" That coming from your loving wife isn't very good for the harmony in the marriage.

Which is a real shame.
We here on the forum are one big family, and have a mutual family bonding, which I see as a safe place, home, where you can go and talk freely, be your self, that's the least we can do for each other.

The rest is up to the members and their partners.

Just thinking up loud: Maybe we can have a special topic on domestic problem solving, on a totally free and where wanted private "sessions". And wouldn't it be nice if there was an specialist who also wears skirts, and would participate, prodeo.

Making suggestions to be followed should be left to professionals. Advice from friends, we can give.

It may be wishful thinking, the suggestion is placed.
Of course, I, we, do and will not meddle in other men's personal lives.

Peter v

[crfriend]

[...][T]he skirt gives a different visual appearance to a person as does a pair of pants, which tend to "divide "the legs, and give the torso a different proportion.

The overall effect of a skirt, especially a longer one, does shift the "center of gravity" downwards a bit, and sometimes this can be advantageous. Having more fabric "below the waist" allows more expressivity below the waist (e.g. prints or other patterns that might not present properly on trousers), and it tends to balance out the typical male "heaviness" up top. This can be both good and bad, so the practitioner needs to be wary of his style and aesthetic.

All this doesn't change the fact that we still have heads that are as I see it most often not as nice as that of women, especially with their beautiful flowing hair.

This is not always the case. There are more than a couple of blokes here that have "great manes". I'm one, Skip is another, and a chap who, sadly, seems to have moved on to "greener pastures" (Kilted Musician) is yet one more. I have waist length hair that, when allowed to "fly free", can be very striking. It also looks darned good in a braid although I almost always wear it in a pony-tail. A good resource for guys who want to grow their hair long (and it's not "femme" at all, by the way) is the "Mens' Long Hair Hyperboard" at http://www.mlhh.org.

So men in skirts is a something new, and we should over the years get used to it as it evolves.

It's "new", in as much as men haven't worn skirted garments in "Western civilisation" in the past couple of hundred years, but other than that aberration, it's not new at all. Take a look at the South Pacific cultures (although they're falling prey to the "Levi's cancer") and other assorted Asian cultures.

[sapphire]

Peter v,
My avatar is a kitten that I bred while I was breeding cats. Her name was Sidhe Reginne and she was a lilac point Birman (the breed is also known as the Sacred Cat of Burma). Sidhe died about 4 years ago from cancer, but I just love that look of lilac point Birmans and still have 5 of them.

This is me, without the glasses, hair all done up and theatrical makeup. Normally, I'm sort of plain, but they say I clean up pretty well. My Mom was Puerto Rican and my Dad was German/Latvian.

[Peter v]

Thank you kindly, Sapphire, without getting personal, I must say, you are a good looker.

And I still can see the resemblance in the cat. But that is all in the way someone looks at something and then sees something in it I suppose.

By the way, it must have been a lovely cat.
My EX wife has our two cats.

Peter v.

[JRMILLER]

Peter, Sapphire,
Just got off the phone with my wife, she is out of town this week on family business. She asked about my skirt wearing this week and what is happening, so I went ahead and told her my feelings. Here is a summary of what I said and how I put it -- and this is a summary and somewhat terse.

I told her how fragile a guy's feeling is about his masculinity thanks to an earlier post -- it's very true in my case and if I was told to carry a purse all day long, I know I would probably try to hide it. I am working on this.

I continued that I know I am a mixture of personality traits and characteristics that some might judge male and some might judge female. However, I am done worrying about that, I am simply "me" and always have been "me". That my personality hasn't undergone a radical change, rather, I have simply opened up the possibility of owning and wearing garments normally associated with women in this culture. I have never given myself permission to do that before, thus, the change is an addition rather than a radical alteration (not sure she shares my view on this).

I told her that given my particular cache of personality traits and interests, that is was no particular surprise that something like a skirt would interest me once the door was open -- in other words, "it goes with the territory".

I then asked her to think about what it was that tied her stomach into knots when she sees me dressed in a skirt, otherwise as a male and let's discuss this when she returns this weekend.

Finally, I closed with how I would like her to get past acceptance and move to support. Further, get angry even at the rest of the culture who wants to keep men in their pants. Be proud of my for my courage to step out into the world wearing a skirt. I will say that the first time was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life! Anyone who thinks a guy wearing a skirt in public is somehow sissy, doesn't have a clue!

She said she would think about it and take it one day at a time.

So, I think there is hope here, I am counting on her logical mind to overcome her emotions on this issue. She has shown this kind of resilience in the past.

Again, thanks for ALL of your help. You have helped me sort through my own emotions and my fragile male ego is intact and stable!

There are so many new adventures to have once we are past the acceptance part.

[sambuka]

Hi John

I am pretty well at the same stage you are with your wife. To me, the process my wife is going through seems pretty similar as mourning because of a sudden loss: shock, anger, denial, depression, negotiations, resignation and finally - hopefully - acceptance and support.

FYI, I have gone the kilt way. On a purely logical level, she's got no argument - it's a man's garment! and I believe I am making headway. I am giving ourselves lots of time for that process to run its course - after all, I've waited 48 years, what's a few months to a year more in the big scheme of things?

Good luck.

[JRMILLER]

Sambuka,
Oh, only if we were just logical creatures! The logic is clear, even for skirts. So long as I am not wearing breast forms, wigs and makeup and disguising myself as a woman, I have the perfect analogy to her beloved jeans. She loves jeans and pants in general -- why I don't know. I guess the grass is always greener. I accept her in her jeans, but they don't "turn me on", I'd rather see her in something pretty. She says seeing me in a skirt doesn't turn her on. Well, I guess that's good symmetry.

I too am "riding the brakes" to give her time to catch up. I really want a lot more than her acceptance, I want to have fun with this, go shopping with her, engage her very creative mind in making good selections for both of us.

[sambuka]

I know - the logic of skirts seems clear to us...

By the way, I find it extremely fascinating to realize that my wife uses the same expressions as your wife to describe her feelings, expressions such as "seeing you in a skirt doesn't turn me on", or "seeing you in a skirt makes my stomach knot up", demonstrating how straight and narrow society's gender roles are.

[alexthebird]

When my first wife and I were having difficulties, one of the issues that surfaced at a particularly tense moment was that when she saw me in a skirt, she questioned her own femininity (whatever that is) and sexuality. That is, she offered the following syllogism.

I make love to my husband
My husband wants to be a girl (since he wears girl's clothes)
Therefore, I must be a lesbian

And, to make it worse, I discovered a fairly deep homophobia I never knew was there. Clearly the logic is flawed, but logic doesn't play a very large role in identity or sexuality, does it?

[sapphire]

At some time in the past, I can recall wondering why skirts are for women and pants are for men. With the exception that more men than women work around machinery with moving parts, and in dirty jobs, I didn't understand the logic. Pants are certainly more practical if one needs to keep one's clothing out of high speed mechanical parts or if one is working in dirty conditions.

With this exception, I wondered why? I had never heard anyone discuss it, but I wondered if men's "parts" ever got bound up in the more restrictive pants.

On the other side, I wondered why women were supposed to wear skirts. Women have a "nether bit" that can get infected relatively easily.

Wouldn't it make more sense to unbind the bound and protect the vulnerable?

[JRMILLER]

It is truly amazing a simple thing such as a skirt can evoke the kind of reactions we get from our wives. Our lovely western culture has done a pretty thorough job of brainwashing most participants. The people that make up and support this group are the pioneers that will lead the rest of the culture out of at least one shadow. Women have done a fine job of expanding their fashion choices and I truly have a lot of respect for what they have been able to accomplish. Now it's our turn guys, we need to stick to our guns and change attitudes! That's the only way this will ever change.

[sapphire]

All cultures "brainswash" their members. That comes part and parcel with living in a society, any society. The only thing that changes are the rules within the society.

John, please take a look at the post I made a couple of days ago, under "Skirts and Kilts for Man" and "Why Men Don't Wear Skirts"

The two of you really need to have a deep, open conversation about our feelings.

If you would like, I can speak privately with her.

In my case, I think I spent about 15 minutes wondering if I should worry about Carl's skirt wearing and decided that such ruminations were a total waste of time and if Carl got "weird" we would deal directly with the weirdness. Of course, he hasn't gotten "weird", just happier.

[Peter v]

All cultures "brainswash" their members. That comes part and parcel with living in a society, any society. The only thing that changes are the rules within the society.

John, please take a look at the post I made a couple of days ago, under "Skirts and Kilts for Man" and "Why Men Don't Wear Skirts"

The two of you really need to have a deep, open conversation about our feelings.

If you would like, I can speak privately with her.

In my case, I think I spent about 15 minutes wondering if I should worry about Carl's skirt wearing and decided that such ruminations were a total waste of time and if Carl got "weird" we would deal directly with the weirdness. Of course, he hasn't gotten "weird", just happier.

Sapphire, your last words are very true. And very essential.

You say, "Of course, he hasn't gotten "weird", just happier."

Isn't this what the wives should be looking at instead of sulking, "O what is this new situation I am in? O how awful for ME."

Their husband is a new and happier man. He has finally found himself.
I would say, "Enjoy that, grasp that, share that, he's your husband isn't he? You do love him, don't you? "

Maybe the wives should hear that said to them when they hear about their man's skirt wishes and want to stop him in his tracks.

Peter v

[crfriend]

Sapphire, your last words are very true. And very essential.

You say, "Of course, he hasn't gotten "weird", just happier."

Sapphire's reaction was, ultimately, one driven by rational thought; she took a hard look at the situation, detached emotion from the analysis, and came to a thought-based (rational) conclusion. She, herself, mentioned earlier on that she first had "doubts" about my new mode of attire more because she "felt she should" rather than anything overt in my behaviour (other than the skirts) setting those thoughts off. Had she not distanced herself from the initial emotional response, it's quite probable she'd not have come to the conclusion she did. If the stereotypes are accurate (and sometimes they are), women may use emotion more in the decision-making process than men and, in this case, potentially cause them to make erroneous decisions about what their guy is doing.

Social pressures are very real things, and all of us react differently to them. Some people are willing to flaunt cultural norms very easily whilst others shy away from it. The interesting thing with MIS is that it's really a very harmless mode of expression; it hurts precisely no-one, other than those willing to be hurt by it. However, I think it's going to be a very tall hill to climb before blokes in skirts are regarded as "normal people" by the bulk of society.