Clothing as an Outward Expression

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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sapphire
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Post by sapphire »

AMM Wrote:

I have to admit, it gets my back up a little when people talk about a "masculine" vs. "feminine" side. When I was a kid, I always resented being shoe-horned into a masculine role -- "what boys do" vs. "what boys don't do." I always resented that the girls could do stuff that I couldn't (I didn't realize at the time that the girls' role was at least as restricted and uncomfortable as mine, just in a different way), and that I had to put up with all sorts of tortures and humiliations that were considered essential parts of being a boy, or else be outcast as a "sissy" and thus fair game for sadists of all ages. Why does playing the piano or cuddling a kitten (or a baby) have to be called "feminine" = "girls' stuff,' and reroofing a house or understanding proofs in geometry have to be called "masculine" = "boys-only stuff"? And why does showing an interest in or even looking at "girls' stuff" have to "give you cooties"? (Or was it that it would turn you into a girl? I forget.)

====================
I share some of the same experiences. There were "feminine" things a girl could do and "masculine" things a boy could do. TO my mind this is a very dangerous thing in our society where people for various reasons need to transcend the labels of "feminine" and "masculine".

For example, back in the '70s I had the responsibility to install a computer network for a manufacturer of sporting goods. I was running cables, had extra cable looped around my shoulder and screwdrivers and wrenches in my pockets. Had I accepted the purely "feminine" box I never would have gotten that (rather well paying) job, nor would it have been offerred.

I've always been a believer that children should be taught life skills that would allow them to function efficiently by themselves.

When I was in high school, I desperately wanted to take mechanical drawing as an elective, but it was boys only. SO I took Latin. Later, I enrolled in engineering school and engineering drawing was required. I was totally lost. Today, I have no use for Latin. However, I have plenty of use for engineering/architectural drawing when doing garden design or designing an extension to the house.

It is my opinion that by plastering "masculine" and "feminine" all over the place, we deny ourselves the full expression of who we are.

End of my rant
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JRMILLER
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So?

Post by JRMILLER »

OK, then it seems to boil down to "if you like it and are comfortable wearing it, wear it and don't worry about it." Don't worry about the "why", we are all a mixed bag anyway. Does that sum it up?

I know I have stepped to a different drummer than most of the other "guys" all my life. I have done a pretty good job of ignoring the difference up to this point in my life. At age 55, the sudden and unexplained interest in skirts has opened up an intense internal dialog. My conclusion at this point is that I am a mixed bag of characteristics and traits that place me in somewhere in the middle as it were. In fact, I do play the piano and I love kittens. I don't, however, fancy myself as a woman, rather, I am simply me.

The pleasure of wearing skirts simply brought it all to my immediate attention and I am still sorting through the fall-out.

I am resolved to continue my interest in skirts, I have decided it is OK for me.

Thanks for all of your kind words, I appreciate the discussions!
Last edited by JRMILLER on Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-John
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sapphire
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Post by sapphire »

John,
Have you talked to your wife about what bothers her about your skirt wearing?

Elsewhere in this forum, I posted some reasons why women might object to skirt wearing by their spouses.
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Wife

Post by JRMILLER »

Sapphire,
Spoken many times. She simply says it makes her stomach knot up to see me in a skirt. Hard to fight that kind of perception, I am hoping it will simply go away over time.
-John
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Post by ziggy_encaoua »

All I'm going to say here (encase I get another spank) is that if your selling something radical its worth to express yourself in a more conservative manner
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JRMILLER
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More about wife

Post by JRMILLER »

Sapphire,
I have tried all the logical arguments and shown her tasteful pictures. I have also shown her that other cultures embrace the skirting practice. She is level headed enough to "agree" on a logical basis, but she is still having an emotional reaction. Things like, "seeing you in a skirt doesn't turn me on", or "seeing you in a skirt makes my stomach knot up", or just plain anger like "why should I (her) wear a skirt to look pretty for you?". She may think I am out-femming her or something. I am not sure where that one came from.

I am patient and calm as always. She did say once the tie-dye colors were right for me (the blues and browns). She has also been shopping and she sees skirts in the store that she later admits might work for me. She doesn't want to point them out to avoid adding fuel to the fire.

She has also said she wouldn't leave me unless I did something REALLY crazy to which I think she means TS which is the last thing on my mind.

She says I wear them too much around the house (I do wear them everyday). I asked her what would work for her and she didn't have an answer.

I hope you see an encouraging pattern here, I want to continue skirting, but I really would like to have her support. We have gone shopping several times recently for her and bought her many nice things, so I am not neglecting her. I am also not buying for her as an excuse to buy for me, when we shop for her, we shop for her, period.
-John
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JRMILLER
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conservative?

Post by JRMILLER »

Ziggy,
Ankle length denim with pockets for most appearances, manly attire otherwise.

I have trotted out my ankle length tie-dye for her once, she liked the colors, but it still turns her stomach.

I just don't see what is so hard about this (for her I mean).
-John
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sapphire
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Post by sapphire »

John,
DO you ever get into why she feels like, "seeing you in a skirt doesn't turn me on", or "seeing you in a skirt makes my stomach knot up"?

WHy does she feel that way? Can you get her to talk about "why". Just let her talk, try to get her to open up more. SOunds like she's feeling insecure about something. Best to get whatever it is out in the open.

Best of luck
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JRMILLER
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Stomach

Post by JRMILLER »

Sapphire,
Yes, I have tried to coax it out of her. So far, I am getting that she grew up in an Italian family with 5 boys, 3 girls. The boys were pretty macho and always trying to see up her skirt. Ironically, she is more of a tomboy now and shies away from strongly femme items. Skirts kind of fit into that category, however, she has been wearing lately -- probably as a response to my wearing. She says she married a man and wants the man. I suggested that she married me and she has me, I just have some non-typical interests in fashion.

The discussions will continue until this resolves out one way or another. I just have to keep my cool and above all, be considerate.
-John
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Post by Kilted_John »

John,

Have you considered going for a kilt? Ethnic background notwithstanding, she may find that more acceptable, and might eventually warm up to your other skirted garments... I went through similar family issues when I first started skirting, back in 2002. Backed off a bit, then tried the kilt angle. No issues with that. Now, I can skirt @ home (and in public when I'm on my own), and they don't mind.

-J
Skirted since 2/2002, kilted 8/2002-8/2011, and dressed since 9/2013...
flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/245gt-turbo
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JRMILLER
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Kilt

Post by JRMILLER »

John,
Haven't tried that angle yet, I can certainly see what she would think of it. She may accuse me of not being Scottish enough, only 25%, the rest is English & German!
-John
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Post by cessna152towser »

Thus, when we are wearing our skirts, are we expressing our soft and feminine side?
Maybe some forumites do; we are all individuals, but I certainly do not regard wearing a skirt as expressing a feminine side. I wear them for comfort and because I feel they epitomise the ancient warrior wild man in me. Then again I limit my own choices of skirt to what I think makes me look macho - apart from kilts I only have a box pleat camo skirt and a denim skirt.
She may accuse me of not being Scottish enough, only 25%, the rest is English & German!
You don't need to be Scottish to wear a kilt. 25% is more than enough. I'm 75% Scottish and wear kilts most days. Living in Scotland I know many people who are 100% Scots and never wear kilts yet they would never criticise anyone of any nationality who chose to do so.
Please view my photos of kilts and skirts, old trains, vintage buses and classic aircraft on http://www.flickr.com/photos/cessna152towser/
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sapphire
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Post by sapphire »

My step-dad was of Scottish ancestry and very proud of it. I can not recall ever seeing him in a kilt, but can easily imagine him doing so.

The circumstances of our lives were such that we lived far from each other and saw each other infrequently. I'd like to think that he had at least one kilt in one of his clan's tartans.

[fortunate enough to have had two great Dads]
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Post by Peter v »

Bryan wrote:
BrotherTailor wrote:Hi JR,
....In studying myself and the way different garments look on me it is clear to me that I look infinitely better in a skirted garment below the waist. ....?
I have to say that not only do I prefer myself wearing a skirt for looks, I also think women look far better in a skirt than trousers, as it appears to be a more natural form of garment to both sexes.

Bryan
Brian, I think that you're partly right, the skirt gives a different visual appearance to a person as does a pair of pants, which tend to "divide "the legs, and give the torso a different proportion.

it is this proportioning that can be seen very vividly when we look at the oversized men's upper garments as to the wonen's body hugging garments.

Once you go a bit on the freestyle look, a bit further towards the """"Femme""""" you will begin to get an insight as to why women look good or not. (it's more than wavy hair, big hips and lovely boobs :roll: :? )
They use proportioning, and dress usually well. The same when men wear tailor made suits, we smarten up at once. Ra ra ra? how can that be I wonder?

Skirts are, even the mini's one flat surface, with a horizontal demarcation line, that gives a very different overall look that pants do.

I sometimes wear a long roll neck sweater over my skirts, and wear a wide belt over it, just as women do. It breaks up the otherwise long line, which in that case is not wanted. Dresses are something different, but are often broken up by the breasts, an under breast line or a belt.

So we can learn many techniques from the other side.

All this doesn't change the fact that we still have heads that are as I see it most often not as nice as that of women, especially with their beautiful flowing hair. But then again I'm biased, being a man. Those men's heads make skirt outfits look different to those we were previously used to seeing from the women.
So men in skirts is a something new, and we should over the years get used to it as it evolves.

peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Post by sapphire »

Oh Peter,
My hair is almost shoulder length and Carl's is waist length.
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