Why Discuss Masculinity?

[jamie001]

I am new to this forum and am having a problem understanding why the threads on the forum always mention "masculine" or "feminine". Many folks here seem to think that feminine is bad and some folks won't even say the "F-word". IMHO, there is nothing wrong with feminine and I thing that we should embrace it. We are all a mix of masculine and feminine characteristics. Articles in most women's magazines tell women how to add a "masculine flare" to their feminine wardrobes by incorporating articles from men's fashion such as men's shirts, men's large watches, men's shoes, and the list goes on and on...

For once I would like to see an article in a magazine or a post in this forum that advocates adding a "feminine flare" to an overall masculine appearance. For example, wearing women's shoes with a skirt or other feminine accessories in order to enhance the look. For this to happen, we have to first accept that there is nothing wrong with feminine items or adding a feminine flare to your overall appearance just as women have added a "masculine flare" to their appearance. Did you even notice how some women dress casually on the weekends? A lot of women wear blue-jeans, a tee-shirt, a baseball cap, and athletic shoes. Hmmmm. isn't this the stereotypical "male look"?

I sincerely believe that Freestyle Fashion needs to embrace masculine and feminine characteristics. For example, I like to wear long highlighted hair, earrings, women's sandals, and a professional pedicure with red nail polish on my toes with my skirts. I don't try to deceive anyone that I am a woman by adopting female mannerisms, a female voice, or a female name. I am a feminized male, but I am still a male and have no desire to deceive anyone

For once I would like to see folks praised for adding a feminine flare to their otherwise male appearance. After all, women have been doing the reciprocal of this for many years,

Best Regards,

Jamie
Fashion Freedom for Men

[Ray]

Jamie,

We discuss masculinity because it is important to many on this forum. While you are right that there is a continuum in gender terms, the core of Toms Café is centred around masculine skirt wearing. The fact that we can also discuss uber-masculine (kilt only) and androgynous (a look and/or accessories typically associated with women) is testament to the openness of the Café.

I know that you are more toward the feminine end of the continuum, but just as kilties should be tolerant towards those like you, the reverse should also apply.

Whether we like it or not, the real world does deal in "masculine" and "feminine". Most of us live in the real world and thus have to deal with what's around us.

Now, that said, I'm off to have my dinner. That's a masculine ribeye steak, feminine peas and an androgynous collective of roast potatoes. The wine's unsure of itself at this time, but is open minded...

[crfriend]

I am new to this forum and am having a problem understanding why the threads on the forum always mention "masculine" or "feminine". Many folks here seem to think that feminine is bad and some folks won't even say the "F-word".

I believe the reason it gets discussed (disgust?) so much is that the general opinion of what it means to be "masculine" is rather too limiting for lots of folks -- it's more confining than we'd like. Too, it's not that we have a distaste for the feminine -- I've never met a more ardent bunch of people who fervently believe in the equality of the sexes than I've found here (note that I did not use the term "feminist" -- two different forces at work there).

It used to be that "masculine" and "feminine" were clearly delineated, and each had their place; it was also arbitrary and grossly unfair. Over the years, however, women began to add more traditionally "masculine" components to their world (sometimes to the point of crossovers and outright androgeny) -- and this perplexed the average bloke who, seemingly, took it as a threat to his "masculinity" (and why it's such a hangup baffles me, and always has) and retreated further into an increasingly tiny box of things that could be construed as male-only, no girls allowed, territory. It's gotten "so bad" these days that women tend to dress like guys, the tend in many cases to act like guys, and they drive bigger trucks than the guys -- what's a bloke to do? All too often, it seems, is to cut back on the size of the box.

So, I suspect that discussing what it means to be "masculine" in the 21st century has a place because if we don't figure out what it means to be male pretty soon that box is going to get microscopic. Does this mean that we should "go femme"? I don't know; everything outside our tiny walled domain is already "feminine" by default, and the ruddy walls are closing in. Guys need to broaden their horizons, and that involves fear -- a fear of the unknown.

My personal opinion is that one is "masculine" in the way he comports himself in the presence of others; it's an appreciation that it's not a sin to be sensitive; it's an awareness that there are other sensitive people around him; and it's an awareness that he is "masculine" simply by being himself and that all the stereotyped trappings mean precisely dick at the end of the day. But that's not the way it plays out on the street -- or at least that's not the way that's it's portrayed as being played out on the street. I really liked AMM's comment about his father: "A 'real man' is one who, when he sees a job that needs doing, just gets down and does it." (in the context of the quote it was changing a diaper) because that captures something tangible and interesting.

For once I would like to see an article in a magazine or a post in this forum that advocates adding a "feminine flare" to an overall masculine appearance. For example, wearing women's shoes with a skirt or other feminine accessories in order to enhance the look.

Interestingly, even here there's some resistance to that -- and this is a remarkably non-conformist (in the general sense) crowd. Yet even we are worried about what is too feminine -- what would it take to push a fashion choice into crossdressing (or what would be perceived in the "outside world" as crossdressing). It's not terribly rational when one sits down to think about it, is it? That's the "box" of masculinity pressing its walls into our hides.

Geez, it's just clothing, isn't it? But, what does it say about us? Can we really defy the customary rules and "values" about being male and still be men? What will our wives think of us? Will they leave us for some "manly man"? Will I get sacked from my job because people think I'm strange? Sadly, these are all valid questions when viewed from "inside the box".

For once I would like to see folks praised for adding a feminine flare to their otherwise male appearance. After all, women have been doing the reciprocal of this for many years,

How about praise for the bloke who has the masculinity (balls, to put it coarsely) to do something different from the herd? I think that if we can divorce the notion of gender from fashion (save for the places where fiddly bits make things not fit well) we'll be better off. And we won't be scaring "Joe Six-pack" away in the process (or inviting him to pummel us).

[sapphire]

Oh yes, and that's one of the reasons I love you. (Can I say that here?)

I would like to recall another couple of posts on another thread.

Carl raided my closet and put together a perfectly masculine and very attrative ensemble including one of my skirts and his own shirt and vest.

When I wear the exact same skirt with my sparkly sweater, I look feminine.

Its just CLOTH!!! Masculine/feminine is imparted to that cloth by the wearer.

[Since1982]

Jamie, there are thousands of feminine looking male, crossdressing, transgendered, transvestite, and drag queen sites, perhaps that's what you are looking for. So far, (I say that hopefully this site does not become one) this site is for men in kilts and or skirts, hence the description in the forward at the top of the site page. In the past, when Tom Manuel started this site and Noodles took it over, it was very much for masculine looking men that enjoyed the coolness and comfort of MUGs (Male Unbifurcated Garments). Jamie, if referring to ourselves as masculine bothers you, perhaps you'd be happier at a site that doesn't promote the masculine side of skirt wearing men.

[jamie001]

I think that you possibly missed my point. We all have both masculine and feminine traits. Women are encouraged to explore their masculine side, while men are taught to suppress or even kill their feminine side. There is nothing inherently wrong with expressing both masculine and feminine traits through the clothing and accessories that we wear. That is provided that we are not a typical macho man this is ruled by fear of the "F" word. As I stated, I am not a crossdresser in the classical sense of the term because I don't try to deceive anyone or adopt female mannerisms. My mission is to RECLAIM the fashion freedom that men used to have. For example, in George Washington's day, men wore wigs, high heels (George wore high heels to his inaugural ball), nail polish. frilly clothing, skirts, makeup, wigs, etc. These items need to be reclaimed by men! It seems that whenever nail polish or high heels are mentioned on this forum, the macho males have a cow over it.

We should not be allowing society to dictate that males are to live in a small box this is getting smaller everyday. Women have adopted every article of male fashion including neckties! We can reciprocate and adopt articles from female fashion if we can just get over the fear of not looking masculine. Unfortunately this useless macho image has been ingrained in many generations of males since the beginning of the industrial revolution and it is this fear and overwhelming urge to conform to the pack mentality the has resulted in the complete stagnation and retrograde motion of male fashion (male fashion is an oxymoron heheheheheh).

Does that make sense?

Regards,

Jame
Fashion Freedom for Men!!
I am a FreeStyler and a Feminzed Male and proud of it!

Jamie, there are thousands of feminine looking male, crossdressing, transgendered, transvestite, and drag queen sites, perhaps that's what you are looking for. So far, (I say that hopefully this site does not become one) this site is for men in kilts and or skirts, hence the description in the forward at the top of the site page. In the past, when Tom Manuel started this site and Noodles took it over, it was very much for masculine looking men that enjoyed the coolness and comfort of MUGs (Male Unbifurcated Garments). Jamie, if referring to ourselves as masculine bothers you, perhaps you'd be happier at a site that doesn't promote the masculine side of skirt wearing men.

[Bob]

Welcome, Jamie.

Unfortunately, no one seems to agree on a model of gender identity. The idea of a "masculine side" and "feminine side" is widely held, but not universally so. But it is a welcome point of view among others at SkirtCafe.

Under that viewpoint, a guy wearing a skirt might be mixing "masculine" and "feminine" elements to arrive at some point between them on a gender continuum.,

I would guess that the reason so many people are concerned with masculinity is that many of us (if not most) have a fundamentally masculine gender identity. And being something that contradict's one's internal gender identity is disconcerting.

Under this alternate model, a guy wearing a skirt would be expanding the definition of what it means to be "masculine." Hence no change in overall gender identity, but an expansion of what is "allowed" within that.

Different strokes for different folks. Let the coffee flow!

[SkirtedViking]

stop implying that a freestler equals a crossdresser,dear Skip,because for society we are all such no matter if it is only a skirt or other things.The only exception is the kilt but in my country this is not popular so it would be as if you wear other type of MUG.I realize the idea of the whole braveheart origin of the cafe,but since I and other freestyelrs stand as men no matter what w eput on we have at least the common goal to broaden men's wardrobe.if it is so bothering for you that some of us wear "women's" shoes,tops or whatever with the skirts it is up to me to create a site for gender honest freestylers and let the stupid division begin.Divide and conquer,let us all be not normall in the eyes of the majority...

[ChrisM]

Jamie, you make an excellent point. Thanks for raising it.

This morning as I dressed for church I thought "Does this look too girly?"

Never in my 50 years have I heard my wife or three daughters say "Does this outfit look too masculine?"


Ladies, (Sapphire, Emerald Witch, QM, etc.) is this a hang up that is uniquely the province of men, or do you in fact sometimes discard an ensemble as being "too male?"

Thanks for raising the question Jamie.

Chris

[Emerald Witch]

This morning as I dressed for church I thought "Does this look too girly?"

Never in my 50 years have I heard my wife or three daughters say "Does this outfit look too masculine?"

Actually, I do think about things like that, though probably not with the same sense of abhorrance a man might use the word "feminine".

I burdened myself with a drab existance of feeling like I didn't deserve to be pretty, and I only had the right to wear slobby old sneakers and secondhand-store menswear-department shirts. I thought that was all I was good for, because I am a plus-sized girl and it's often hard to find pretty things in my size. So I stopped trying years and years ago. I found that men's things often fit, so I told myself that that was "good enough", and let it go at that.

Now that I've got some dignity and have found my own beauty, I wouldn't be seen DEAD wearing a button-front shirt! FAR too "masculine" for me! At the very least, if I did wear a shirt with buttons, it would have to be very seriously tailored to fit my curves and probably have all kinds of extra details like pretty seams, lace, ruching, sequins, or SOMETHING to show that in NO WAY is this a man's shirt. AND I'm gonna wear earrings and lipstick and the whole getup with it!

For me, it's all about knowing how pretty I want to look. I'm not threatened in my femininity. I just won't settle for less.

[ChristopherJ]

We all have both masculine and feminine traits. Women are encouraged to explore their masculine side, while men are taught to suppress or even kill their feminine side. There is nothing inherently wrong with expressing both masculine and feminine traits through the clothing and accessories that we wear. That is provided that we are not a typical macho man this is ruled by fear of the "F" word. As I stated, I am not a crossdresser in the classical sense of the term because I don't try to deceive anyone or adopt female mannerisms. My mission is to RECLAIM the fashion freedom that men used to have. For example, in George Washington's day, men wore wigs, high heels (George wore high heels to his inaugural ball), nail polish. frilly clothing, skirts, makeup, wigs, etc. These items need to be reclaimed by men! It seems that whenever nail polish or high heels are mentioned on this forum, the macho males have a cow over it.

Brilliant - I agree completely. Although I personally don't wear frills or makeup etc., I don't give a damn if anyone else does - and I care even less what gender they are.

Many years ago it was men who were the peacocks, so to speak, as it was the men who wore extravagant clothing, footwear, legwear and headwear, rather than the women. At times, men have worn their hair long, they have worn face powder, embroidered stockings, perfume . . etc. But all that ended with the coming of the Puritans and the cult of drabness that took a firm hold of mens fashions during the Victorian era has retained its grip even today. I applaud your desire to reclaim the vitality and the exuberance within men's fashions that we have lost.

In a similar vein, I would like to reclaim the sensuality of men's fashions. Or sexuality, even. By that, I don't mean that we should dress as some sort of male slut, but more that we should be able to use our clothing styles to complement out intrinsic sensuality/sexuality. The Victorian uniform of a dark suit - and even the more modern uniform of blue jeans - make men appear to be completely sexless, in my opinion.

[Sylvain]

Many years ago it was men who were the peacocks, so to speak, as it was the men who wore extravagant clothing, footwear, legwear and headwear, rather than the women. At times, men have worn their hair long, they have worn face powder, embroidered stockings, perfume . . etc. But all that ended with the coming of the Puritans and the cult of drabness that took a firm hold of mens fashions during the Victorian era has retained its grip even today. I applaud your desire to reclaim the vitality and the exuberance within men's fashions that we have lost.

But in Puritan times, women too wore drab dresses. How did they escape?

[Bob]

But in Puritan times, women too wore drab dresses. How did they escape?

They were forced to do so by the men who ran the show.

[Peter v]

To Jamie, first input,

"For once I would like to see folks praised for adding a feminine flare to their otherwise male appearance. After all, women have been doing the reciprocal of this for many years,"

I get full appraisal from women when I am about, quite often from women in women's clothing shops where I look for suitable skirts.

Expressing themselves is second nature for women, we men have to learn how to do that, at least more than when we didn't wear skirts. I wear different women's skirts, now in the winter with pantys, and differing shirts, etc. mostly mens. I try to be creative and look at what women wear as an example to follow. But in no way do I hide my gender. I get full appreciation because I am myself, a MAN wearing different clothes to that which is normally worn. Women love that. A man who shows he can break with the restricting rules and be his true self, show emotion, feeling.

When women see you, and look at you, they see a man, no doubt about that. You will get positive feedback. if you dress yourself well, be it "MANLY" or "feminine" they are merely nuances of the theme a man wearing a skirt. But still always a MAN. And in all manner of clothing you show your ability to be more than one of the crowd. Which is attractive or if you like, sexy, in itself.

Peter v