Full Fashion Freedom vs. the impression on others

[AMM]

Once again, I'm posting after my bedtime, which means way after I can think clearly, but what the heck...


I've noticed a gradual drift in Tom's Cafe/SkirtCafe towards sort of an ethic that it's good to wear whatever you want (limited only by a sort of good taste or public decency criteron.) What I'd call "full fashion freedom." There used to be considerable concern about whether an outfit was "too unnmasculine" or going too far for the general public to accept, but I hear that far less these days.

I'm of two minds about this.

On the one hand, what I like to wear (when I think I can get away with it) would likely strike many of those who used to post more regularly here as "too femme," so it's nice to feel that this is a more accepting place for me.

But on the other hand, I do want to be accepted by my neighbors in the Real World(tm) even while skirting, or at least by almost as many as accept me now. This means I want to consider not only what I might enjoy wearing, and what people here might enjoy seeing me wearing, but also how what I wear affects how my neighbors and acquaintances will view me.

To use an extreme example: if I were to show up, say, at my sons' school in a pink poodle skirt, or in a knee-length straight skirt, ruffled georgette blouse, sheer nylon hose, and 2" heels, it would make relations with their teachers, their friends, and the other parents difficult, to say the least. I would be seen as "wierd," and I would have to work extra hard to get people to take anything I said seriously. In fact, if I did this even once, I suspect that a number of people would never have any more contact with me (or my kids) than they absolutely had to. By contrast, if I showed up in a Utilikilt occasionally, people would still look at me a little funny, but I would have an easier time convincing them that I was on the level.

I think that if I went into the local grocery store in the poodle skirt or the blouse-and-skirt outfit described above, no one would say anything unless they knew me (and maybe not even then.) For some people, that might be acceptance enough. But I realize, that is not enough for me. I'm willing to be considered eccentric. I'm not willing to be considered wierd (except by the sort who would consider me wierd in any case.)

Now, I have seen pictures and descriptions of outfits posted here in recent months which, to be a bit brutally frank, would have put me off a bit if I'd seen someone coming up the sidewalk looking like that. Since I presume that I'm a little more accepting than the average member of the public of less than 100% masculine attire on men, I'd guess that others might have the same reaction. This isn't to say that people shouldn't talk about clothing styles that they like just because it might not be to my taste. But I think it's a mistake to be entirely silent about the effect that the various "looks" that we consider might have on the uninitiated.

I'm a little worried that we as a group might in our thinking become disconnected from society at large. (I wonder if this has already happened to some participants.) I think that if we (men) care about integrating skirting into our lives and our communities and/or about presenting skirts as a reasonable clothing alternative for men, we have to reflect frequently on how we are going to come off to others.

-- AMM

[Sarongman]

AMM, I am totally in agreement there with your sentiments. To gain wider acceptance we must look to what is more acceptable in general. I have for some time now, worn sarongs out and about and have only just got around to wearing skirts publicly. The skirts I choose to wear are, (probably through innate conservatism) chosen as close as I can (subjectively) see as plain, pocketed, and "masculine" in effect. I wear ordinary mens shoes, shirts, no pantyhose or any other paraphenalia that would spoil the effect we are trying to get across of being ordinary people unconstrained by convention.

After all, although my personal skirt wearing is a statement of freedom, I am conscious that, when walking in unfamiliar territory, small cautious steps are better than long strides that could end in a disaster.

[SkirtedViking]

that men should pursue full fashion freedom but that can be achieved in time.First only skirt,then adding other elements as women did once.Unfortunately even a skirt for a man is not widely acpeted,not to mention other things,but still I wear them because that what equality is and i would betray the cause if i stop.

[crfriend]

Thanks, AMM, for bringing up some interesting points.

As I see it, the issue is with first impressions, not impressions gained through interaction. We've all had it banged into us since childhood that "there's never a second chance to make a good first impression", and I think it's made us all a little bit paranoid. We never interact with the overwhelming portion of people around us in our day-to-day lives, so really why should we be so concerned? Those folks who we do interact with will rapidly get a sense that what we're wearing on the lower half of our bodies is just covering and get on with things.

When it comes to folks like neighbours, sometimes may be best to take the lead and make an effort to interact with them to skirt around (sorry for the pun) the "first impression" problem. A polite "hello" and a wave or handshake will make a far more powerful first impression than a simple visual. It might also help ward off a negative first impression -- there's that nutter in a skirt.

As far as other paraphernalia go, sometimes it's best to recall that in this context, "It's not a girly thing, it's a skirt thing." This includes things like bags and legwear -- they tend to "go with the territory" rather out of necessity because of a lack of pockets (too small pockets, pockets that stuffing stuff into would ruin the line or drape of the skirt, &c.) or the fact that if you're not wearing a floor-dragger your legs will be exposed. Except that it's part of the costume, for instance, I happen to find the look of kilt hose a bit silly -- the line of the leg gets busted up leaving only the knees exposed; I like continuous lines, which things like legwear helps to preserve. That's also why I find clam-diggers/capris so repulsive -- they put a hard break at an awkward spot.

The other thing that we should take note of, especially if we're worried about "first impressions" and "being ambassadors for 'fashion freedom' (whatever that may be)" is that we need to put forth a coherent "look" rather than just chucking a skirt, t-shirt, and trainers on and stumbling out the door like we do in trousers. Take an extra moment and get the look down, make it believable, and then maybe, just maybe, the first impression might be a good one.

[Pythos]

You state that you see or hear of fashions that some guys are trying, and imply that they shouldn't be part of fashion freedom. But you do not go into detail about which ones.

At first your post irritated me because you seemed to be placing limits that are quite unecessary. It would seem you are so worried about what people think you are willing to limit yourself, and to an extent others. I for one am sick and tired of other skirt wearers hiding in their houses. This limits the ability of others to go out skirted. This is something that will only become mainstream if a large number are seen doing it. (kinda like the overlarge pants thing that has infested this and other countries.)


The only limits I can see for what a guy can wear and still be a guy is, the guy has to physically look like a man (no fake hips, breasts, hair), no make up, no flattened fronts (tucking), and no female name.

For me the outfit should have little to no lace, little to no embroidery, be of subtle colors (black, grey, navy,).

I will be adding to my webshots pics of my wedding dress to present the kinds of stuff I have worn, and what I might wear.

I would like people's impressions on this.

[ChrisM]

Thanks AMM for bringing up this subject.

As my experimentation (2 years in skirts still counts as experimentation when projected against a backdrop of 50 years in trousers) has continued it has of course swung like a pendulum across extremes. I found that what I was wearing yesterday was a little too femme: In fact I counted that I was wearing NO articles originally marketed for men: Blouse, slip, skirt, hose, shoes, and even nail polish.

(I am not usually so extreme - this was, as I said, a 'pendulum excursion.')

And it was this fact, that all the garments were from the distaff side of aisle, that underscored for me the advice given here earlier. I'll not do justice to the original poster, but the advice was along the lines of "Wear enough articles that are Distinctly Masculine so that the message you send is not "wierdo" but "purposely selecting a few items across the gender boundary."

Some part of this is accomplished for me by the simple fact of my mustache. But apart from that I am slender enough (fit, not skinny) and long-haired enough that a casual glance, if I carry it too far, can look like I am a failed attempt to crossdress.

Thus, here are some emerging personal guidelines for implementing this:

Ways to help say "daring" versus "wierdo:"
> I can wear men's shoes with a skirt.
> If wearing a sarong or sarong-like skirt (I like my peasant skirts) I often wear either no shirt at all, or a shirt worn open - both styles that are forbidden to women.
> Eschew finger nail polish when wearing skirts. (Or at least colors likely to be noticed from afar.)
> Posture says a lot: Flat shoes and you 'stand like a man', heels and your legs take on a profile more associated with women.

These specifics are only intended as illustrations of a general principle, and it's a principle for me only - I am not suggesting that everybody ought to dress as I do. (Heck, in such case I would probably have to switch to <ugh> blue jeans just to preserve my eccentricity!)

But the general principle is an attempt to implement exactly what AMM has raised: Be different, but not off-putting.

So: How do you guys walk this line? I like the suggestion of being proactive with the neighbors. What other practical suggestions have you?

Thanks,

Chris

[AMM]

You state that you see or hear of fashions that some guys are trying, and imply that they shouldn't be part of fashion freedom.

I don't really know what "fashion freedom" is, and don't really care. I do know that in most places I have lived, you can get away with walking around in public in pretty much anything you want, as long as it doesn't qualify as "indecent exposure." People who deal with the general public (e.g., at McDonalds, or cops) won't bat an eye. Other people may possibly stare and whisper, but they won't actually do anything to you. Arguably, that is "fashion freedom."

But you do not go into detail about which ones.

That's because I'm not interested in saying "outfit A good, outfit B bad." It's not about what you wear, it's about how what you wear fits in with your relationship with people around you.

It would seem you are so worried about what people think you are willing to limit yourself, and to an extent others.

Limiting yourself based on what other people will think is part of what is called "relating to other people." If you're willing to live pretty much in isolation, and don't need a job or anything that requires people accepting you, you can do pretty much what you want, subject to legal constraints. But if you want to have a spouse (or equivalent), and kids, and close friends, and neighbors, and acquantances, etc., you're going to have to take their needs and reactions into account and negotiate what you can and can't do and still maintain these relationships, or you'll soon find that spouse, kids, etc., will not want to have anything to do with you. And how the "general public" views you will have an effect here: if you are generally seen as "wierd" or offensive by the community at large, not only you, but your spouse and kids will be ostracized. This is not a fun place to be.

This doesn't mean you can't wear skirts if you want to have relationships, but it does mean that you have to figure out a way to wear them that doesn't push people away. And recognize that there are times and places where you're better off switching to trousers. (E.g., job interviews, assuming you need the job.)

What I was trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to propose in my original post was that, when looking at someone's outfit, we should, among other things, discuss how we think it will come across to the people we are likely to meet in our lives outside SkirtCafe.

For example, if an outfit gives the impression that the wearer is trying to pass as a woman (which would make a lot of people uncomfortable), it might be worth saying, even if the wearer is not trying to pass as a woman. Furthermore, an outfit might be OK in some contexts, or in certain groups, but not others.

Bottom line: I am not trying to tell people what they should or shouldn't wear. I am telling them that perhaps they should consider the effect on other people, in addition to whether it looks cool.

-- AMM

[ChristopherJ]

I don't see the purpose in this thread. Every now and again something like this gets posted and people have a nice little grumble about how we should all be careful what image we put across - in case we damage 'the movement'.

To use an extreme example: if I were to show up, say, at my sons' school in a pink poodle skirt, or in a knee-length straight skirt, ruffled georgette blouse, sheer nylon hose, and 2" heels, it would make relations with their teachers, their friends, and the other parents difficult, to say the least. I would be seen as "wierd," and I would have to work extra hard to get people to take anything I said seriously.

What is the point of using such an extreme example? Does it demonstrate anything? Anyone can wear totally unsuitable clothes if they choose to - with or without a skirt. All that this would demonstrate is that the person (IMO) has no fashion sense. Why inflate this into something that could theoretically damage the public perception of MIS?

As you say in another post - you are not willing to say "this outfit is OK - that outfit is not OK" - so I don't see what the intention of the thread was. To remind us to all dress "decently"? According to who?

I'm not getting at you or anything like that - I just find this all too woolly. Yes, yes, yes, we should all try not to frighten the natives etc. etc. - but who is going to police this and on whose authority and judgement would such policing operate anyhow?

It's a free country. People are entitled to wear whatever they chose - no matter if it offends some.

[DavidsSkirts]

My own, personal definition of Fashion Freedom is along these lines :

" that everybody - men and women - should have the right to wear whatever they like [or not, I also support the idea of more public nudity !!], in their own time, while making due allowance for practical, social or cultural needs."


This allows some flexibility - for work or safety, for 'formal' or 'protocol' requirements, and for recognising that many places have the right to set their own standards of dress and 'decency'..


Sometimes, these ideas need that little bit of "woolliness" about them...

As with everyone else here, any limits I might set on this here, are only for me - and me alone - if people want to embarrass themselves through their own bad tastes or faux pas, then let them.. Should not worry the rest of us unduly.

[JeffB1959]

My own, personal definition of Fashion Freedom is along these lines :

" that everybody - men and women - should have the right to wear whatever they like [or not, I also support the idea of more public nudity !!], in their own time, while making due allowance for practical, social or cultural needs."

I couldn't agree more with what you said! You definitely hit the nail on the head with your comments. We, as a people should be enlightened enough not to worry or obsess about what people wear and whether of not it matches a person's gender. As long as a person exhibits good taste (along with a little style which never hurts), I say live and let live!

[AMM]

we need to put forth a coherent "look" rather than just chucking a skirt, t-shirt, and trainers on and stumbling out the door like we do in trousers.

I beg to slightly disagree, or at least propose a qualification.

My concern is whether what we wear alienates the people in our lives and who affect our lives. To avoid alienating them it is not enough to have a coherent look. It also matters what that coherent look is. Many posters to crossdressers.com show pictures of themselves where they look better "put together" than most of us here. And I've seen pictures of people here in a sort of Goth look who also looked pretty put together. Probably both would be passable at the local grocery store. Neither would go over well at my kids' school, skirt or no skirt.

CR, based on your posts and the few pictures I've seen of you in a skirt, I don't think you would go for the more extreme looks that would alienate people. But many of the pictures I have seen here recently from other posters might.

-- AMM

[AMM]

To use an extreme example: if I were to show up, ... in a knee-length straight skirt, ruffled georgette blouse, sheer nylon hose, and 2" heels,...

What is the point of using such an extreme example? Does it demonstrate anything?

Such a look would be extreme for me, but have seen pictures posted here that look pretty much like that. All of the comments were positive, and no one addressed the fact that there are only a limited number of venues where you could get away with dressing like that.

This is an issue of some importance for me. There are some places where I feel I have a fair amount of freedom in what I wear -- mainly Contra dancing events and the like.

But I would like to be able to wear skirts (and maybe dresses) to the post office, to visit friends, to family events, or even when hanging out with my kids. (I have no desire to dress this way to work!) If I wear what I would like to wear in my daily life, and it alienates people, it will at the very least make life difficult for my kids. It might make it impossible for me to play more than a minimal role in my community. And I don't think I could undo the damage. At this point, I'm not prepared to pay that price.

So when I see an outfit shown and/or discussed here, the question "does it look good?" is almost overshadowed by the question "where could I get away with wearing it?"

-- AMM

[Pythos]

Currently your assumption would be correct, there are very limited areas we can wear what we would like. But, the same was said for women in jeans, men with ear rings, men with long hair, women in skirts or dresses without hose...yada yada yada.

But with a few, or more than a few brave souls discovering it was no big deal, these styles became common place, and even part of the mainstream.

So it is with this idea of ours.

Hiding is not the answer. One person stepping out is not the answer. Reaction to stupid customer relation blunders like southwest pulled would slightly help. Remember, some clod thought that girls skirt was too short, I heard some other idiot would not let a news caster who was in a skirt without hose, get aboard the aircraft until she got some on (he got fired).

When the columbine shootings took place, the goth comunity was black balled. The goth culture was looked at and critisised by the ignorant. Did the Goths put up with it? To my knowledge no, because somehow the link between those two losers and Goths was soon broken. Possibly some Goths set the record straight.

[crfriend]

My concern is whether what we wear alienates the people in our lives and who affect our lives. To avoid alienating them it is not enough to have a coherent look. It also matters what that coherent look is.

Perhaps I was addressing the problem in a too-shallow sense (i.e. "fashion"). I agree that the "real 'problem'" is vastly deeper than whether we (to swipe a fashion phrase) "make it work" or not. My thrust is that we should strive to make the look of a "bloke in a skirt" believable -- he should look the part of brother, father, husband, lover, and son. The fact that he's wearing a skirt should not necessarily enter into the argument. Yes, I know that notion may verge on fantasy (if not be right into it), but that's the way it ought to work.

Ultimately, we are what we are, not what we wear. Those that interact with us know that (or really should, unless they're shallow) and ought to be able to listen to reasoned explanations. If they cannot listen to reason, then at least rational argument should turn them; failling that, it's "game over" and the battle's lost.

CR, based on your posts and the few pictures I've seen of you in a skirt, I don't think you would go for the more extreme looks that would alienate people. But many of the pictures I have seen here recently from other posters might.

I'm an "older bloke", and I have my sense of the aesthetic. Some of the younger folks have theirs. Who am I to point fingers? (After all, there was one hell of a rift in my family over the length of my hair!) On occasion, I'll put together something that just doesn't work; fortunately, I have a dear wife who reins me in ("You look like a gorilla in a dress", for instance (but, dammit, that was an experiment not a fashion statement!)) So, I tend towards more "conservative" styles; that does not necessarily mean that the younger set needs to.

I believe that it may ultimately come down to not what we're wearing, but how we interact with those who are "important" to us. I'm not saying that we can overcome the issue with bosses (I don't even consider wearing a skirt to work even though most of the guys around me, not to mention the women, are attired in outright grunge) because likely we cannot; I'm hoping that we can, though sensitivity, understanding, love, caring, and empathy encourage them to understand that we're just "us" -- we're the same bloke we've always been (warts and all); we've just put something "different" 'round our bottoms.

[Emerald Witch]

It's true that as a girl there's not a lot I can say about the challenges you have to face stepping out your doors in Cafe fashions. It's not my battle, it is yours. Naturally I support you in whatever choices you feel are right for your lives and situations. Some are ready for bolder moves, but some (perhaps to protect their families, or to give themselves time to build up their own courage, or maybe just because they like it that way!) prefer to keep things much subtler. None of those choices are wrong.

I don't think anyone's progress is reliant upon anyone else's. I don't think that one weirdo in a skirt can give everyone else in a skirt a bad name. Sure folks will try to make the connection, but it is up to each of us as individuals to make a name for ourselves -- to be known by our neighbors and workmates and son's teachers and folks at the grocery store as "that nice and harmless person who always smiles and looks me straight in the eye and answers all my questions and has a good handshake and, okay, yeah sometimes wears some odd things but is basically pretty much a good person".

Modern society often times is isolationist. I don't know if it's so bad in the UK, but in America, especially on the West Coast, people move so frequently that few people ever get to know their neighbors, and a sort of bubble of anonymity follows everyone around. You don't know the name of anyone near you. You get used to not knowing who lives next door, because just as likely they are going to be someone different in six months anyway.

My suggestion is that we need to break down those walls and make the effort. Use our specialnesses as conversation-starters to bring people together. I have often started conversations up with strangers in the grocery store that I never expected to see again, making an effort to learn the folks' names. Usually I don't ever see them again, but sometimes I do, and it's always with a smile. I spend time in my yard and garden on purpose to have a chance to run into my neighbors and have met most of them this way.

Fear makes us hide. Courage makes us open up. Once we open up we begin to find that most other people are just like us inside -- lonely, frightened, wishing they had more courage, wishing they had more friends.

Some people are mean, it's true, because that's where they think they get their power from. But most aren't.

So wear what you like. Be what you are. Don't let the fear of what you think is normally acceptable be the only rod by which you measure your choices. People can be more accepting and forgiving than you might guess, if you approach them as a friend.