TOS Question

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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jamie001
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TOS Question

Post by jamie001 »

I apologize in advance for posting this question, but I don't know how to reach a site moderator for my inquiry.

Is there a place on this forum to discuss how are freestyle fashions affect other aspects of our lives. Without going into detail because it may be a TOS violation, I would like to ask how freestyling integrates or doesn't integrate into your spiritual life such as church functions or being active in your church.

Please understand that my inquiry has nothing to the beliefs of your religion, what religion you are, or what God you believe in, if any. My question is about how you are or are not accepted at church and church function while wearing your freestyle fashions. Many religions segregate and teach that men are from Mars and women are from Venus and are two different species and therefore they support gender stereotypical forms of presentation through clothing.

I am having a very difficult time reconciling this. Moderators, I understand if you need to delete this thread immediately, but if you do, I would greatly appreciate a PM with any insight that you may have.

Thank you.

Jamie
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crfriend
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Re: TOS Question

Post by crfriend »

jamie001 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:03 pmI apologize in advance for posting this question, but I don't know how to reach a site moderator for my inquiry.
The moderation team is clearly called out in at least one link that's usually toward the lower part of the page and entitled something akin to "team". Any of us (or all of us) can be reached via private messaging from there. We don't exactly hide.
Is there a place on this forum to discuss how are freestyle fashions affect other aspects of our lives. Without going into detail because it may be a TOS violation, I would like to ask how freestyling integrates or doesn't integrate into your spiritual life such as church functions or being active in your church.
Not a TOS (Terms Of Service) violation in the least, so long as it stays respectful. I've always attempted to run this place as a "big tent" to establish a "broad church" for folks. About the only thing that's truly frowned upon is harping on underwear preferences (if it's not overly visible, then it's typically not discussed, same as in conversations in meat-space), and "orthodox cross-dressing" which is a form of performance art where the practitioner acts the part of another role. There are dozens of sites that cater to that, so a potential practitioner would be better served with any of them than here, because this is fundamentally a man's forum for discussing skirts and kilts in a male context.

Spirituality is a fundamental part of many of our inner cores, and is open for discussion so long as it doesn't spill into evangelism and proselytising -- and remains respectful of others. It is an inescapable part of who many of us are, thus discussion of it is clearly "on the table".

This author's opinion on the matter is that what we wear does not in any way signify who (or what) we are, but rather merely states our preference for certain styles of clothing. The nice thing about clothing is that once you remove it, women tend to look like women and men tend to look like men, thus simplifying the problem. People tend to forget this -- and forget it at their own peril.
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Re: TOS Question

Post by Faldaguy »

An aside re the MB's comment about the appearance of our gender without clothing; I'd add dang few of us on this site look unlike men, nor like women even when decked out as we tend!

Jamie 001: You will find interspersed in the cafe quite a few comments about skirts and church. My personal experience, and most of the others that have commented, is there is little of no difference in their reception in the houses of worship than those of friends, bars, dress shops or sports fields. A few have their own built-in bias or reluctance to test those grounds, yet those of us who have are still kicking with all of our parts and psyche intact.

My usual choice for a place of worship is quite a "liberal" one and has been open to LGBTQ+ folks and others for a long while; and even before that was more or less made "official" policy, tolerance was easily found. I've also attended a couple of church conventions, and friends much more conservative venues without any challenge. You may get a few "looks" but like most times you will find that as soon as you engage in conversation or activities, you just become another of the group.
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mishawakaskirt
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Re: TOS Question

Post by mishawakaskirt »

Great question. The intersection between skirts, fashion and faith and family is " at odds" for many of us. This has been a such a great turmoil In my life. All in my own mental musings, prayer on the subject, and lengthy discussions with my wife.
Since you are asking. I believe that men and women are vastly and uniquely very different. Physically, hormonally, mentally, and their likes and dislikes, It only stands to reason that there are societal and clothing differences. However In spirit we are very much the same and are equals.

As mentioned earlier I struggled with this for 20 years. The Internet of the 90s and early 2000s told me I was a crossdresser, which to a point I guess is technically right, crossing the asile to find something to wear.

I tried alot of the CD stuff. But was always uncomfortable with it.
Fast-forward to 2015, two things happened, I found this website (skirt Cafe) where men wear skirts and are still men and two, I got my first kilt. ( The kilt was completely off my radar at that time, I had never given it a thought) Those two events helped me figure this out. That men can wear skirts, and two that it's the form of garment that I fallen in love with, not the fact that it's something women's.
I found that skirts and kilts are both comfortable. It doesn't have to be women's to want to wear It. (I got rid of all my CD related stuff in 2015)
That being said I prefer the average skirt to kilts any day.
Kilts cost more, usually are alot hotter and heavier, requires special pleat care/ consideration.
Skirts simply are more practical.

My wife's view point is any garment from the wrong department is sin, therefore wrong, crossdressing etc what ever you would like to call it. There is a thread called difficulties with partners that dives deep into close relationships and most often where strong objections come from.
I have gotten the" I married a man not a woman" from the wife many times.

I maintain that there is a dividing line between. A man in a skirt, and someone that would be considered, crossdressing, trans, drag or whatever you would like to call it. I'm doing it for comfort, not to heavily emulate, copy, pass as a woman, attempt to live as or identify as, or be a woman.
I don't wish to hide I'm male, or confuse or decieve anyone to any degree.

Me and several other members here hold sort of a article of one garment guide line. We will wear only one considered feminine garment at a time. With our masculine men's clothing.

My personal convictions are. (For me and clearly stated to my wife.)
I will never wear a skirt or kilt and shave my legs, carry a purse, wear pantyhose, wear makeup, jewelry, women's shoes, woman's tops, bras, emulate women's actions, voice.

Even with all that my wife finds my skirts unacceptable.


Gettng more back to the original question. I have never attempted to press this issue at my church with kilts or skirts. I doubt my wife would go with me anywhere if I was clad in a kilt or skirt.
Since we go pretty much every where together. I don't have very much opportunity to kilt or skirt publicly.
So wearing one out the door as just because or everyday fashion to church has zero possiblity.

One time I wore a drab green utility kilt as part of a biblical times costume along with a short overcloak and a fabric sash tied around my waist. This was for a typical skit, towns people, Roman guard, a disciple or two. (I was one of the townsfolk.)
It's interesting that clothing was so similar to a robe or dress back then for both sexes.

Comments and I got comments that night they were.

My wife said I didn't look biblical but looked More Chinese/ Asian like dressed.

One man said that had better be a kilt and not a skirt.

One woman with a cutting, condescending tone in her voice said I was going to wear "that" I would have to start shaving my legs.

This was while in a self improvised costume for a skit.

I could only reasonably imagine that If I showed up at random in a skirt, I would be asked to change or leave.
In a kilt, I would have to have a good reason and not "just because."

Now before you say that is terrible, and I'd not go to, or I'd leave that church. I won't.
Everyone is entitled to have setup their own convictions.
99 percent of everything I hold the same beliefs and convictions. I love my wife and most of these people dearly. Quite a few I'm closer to than my own family and are considered friends and family.

Is it petty to tell others what to wear? YES!
But it's also petty to force someone to agree with or accept something that makes them uncomfortable


I figure skirts around others is like a scab on a wound. Keep it covered and don't pick at it.

This is based on my experience. It's certainly not a easy answer. Or a cookie cutter one size fits all answer. Your people may treat You completely different than my people.
You have to ultimately set your standards and limits.
And decide what is an acceptable outcome.
Is wearing a skirt putting you and clothes before other people?

What kinds of things are your priorities?

God Faith J esus live
Country Family O thers laugh
Work Friends Y ou. love

What are your priorities?
Is the way you dress Worth a possible negative outcome?
Last edited by mishawakaskirt on Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Midas
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Re: TOS Question

Post by Midas »

It seems to me that the real problem is religion, not one’s manner of dress. I’m with Jethro Tull - ‘he’s not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays’. But each to his own.
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moonshadow
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Re: TOS Question

Post by moonshadow »

jamie001 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:03 pm Is there a place on this forum to discuss how are freestyle fashions affect other aspects of our lives. Without going into detail because it may be a TOS violation, I would like to ask how freestyling integrates or doesn't integrate into your spiritual life such as church functions or being active in your church.
We have spiritual and religious discussions all of the time, sometimes they don't even have anything much to do with skirts! Over the years, I've learned that once a member becomes a "regular" we start to become accustomed to each others style of writing, the topics that matter to each of us individually, and there are cases where I've seen the mods allow the rules to be bent ever so slightly.

As for church, church can by like a family, and indeed some families may have been attending the same church for generations, so in many ways a church family can be just as strong, if not stronger than actual blood family. As such, when a male member suddenly shows up in a skirt, I can understand it being a source of angst for the member himself and his church family. Indeed, men expressing any hint of femininity can be frowned upon in certain church congregations, and wearing an "off the peg" skirt can figuratively turn the "femininity" up to "11" for some people.

Often times, and as many wives of members here will certainly testify, it can be too much to bear.

Each of us individually have to decide what we want in our lives. For some people like mishawakaskirt, his church family means more to him than his desire to wear skirts openly. Such is his right. He has no requirements either way, he has made his choice, and we must respect his choices. Others like oldsalt1 have found complete acceptance among his church family and blood family. Good for the both of them for finding peace in the paths they have chosen.

As for me, I am "unchurched" and can be rather salty to the point of being arrogant about my choice in clothing. It has created a situation where I can and do wear quite literally whatever I want and to hell with what the world thinks about it... but everything is not as it seems. When I turned my back on society, society reciprocated and turned its back on me. I have no close friends, no church, no community, and am rather tolerated locally. People are friendly, but I've noticed how nobody ever ventures past the curb to walk up on my porch, nor will they sit in the passenger seat of my car. They keep me at arms length, probably to protect their own reputation. I have complete acceptance with my sister, my wife, and my stepdaughter. Mom is getting better, and I give her a B+ for effort. At least I can finally wear a skirt around her. I've had to disown my father, though it wasn't over skirts, but even so, him and I have taken such different philosophical/spiritual/political paths over the last decade, I'm sure he would be disgusted by my choice in clothing.

So yes, I'm "free", but in every way that counts, it's "us against the world", "us" being my wife and myself. But still, this is the life I have chosen. At any time I can toss the skirts and start acting normal again, and I'm sure eventually the world would accept me back into their fold. However I choose not to.

My path can make one rather ornery... (just ask the members I've tangled with over the years) full of demons to battle and other unsavory challenges... proceed at your own risk...
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jamie001
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Re: TOS Question

Post by jamie001 »

Thanks to everyone for the insightful replies. I may be a little different than some of the folks that replied to this thread in the fact that I am a feminine male. I am in my early 60's, have professionally colored golden blond hair that is styled in a feminine manner that could never be mistaken as masculine. I also always carry a women's purse, even though it is not flowery or glittery, there is no mistaking that it is a women's purse. This is part of my presentation. I very rarely wear skirts, and am otherwise dressed in male clothing. My toenails are always painted red and I wear open toe sandals. It is the presentation that makes me happy. I identify as a "gender non-conforming male". I have no desire to transition or to become a female. I just need to be myself.

In the past I have tried to conform to society's proverbial "man-box". This has caused me unbelievable pain that slowly creeps-up on me and the result is overwhelming depression, severe hypertension, and even worse almost fatal issues that I won't discuss here. I believe that forcing yourself to conform to a cookie cutter image and living in the man-box can for some folks such as myself lead to mental illness, severe depression, anxiety, and even death.

I would have been fine had I been born in the 1700's when men wore fashion that is now considered off-limits. My view is that I will not let society force me into the man-box at the expense of the destruction of my mental and physical health because of some bigoted opinions expressed by knuckle-draggers.

It is not worth the cost to have friends when you cannot be your true self. It is like acting a part of a movie or play that is not real. I am beginning to come around to the thought process that anyone that doesn't like me because I'm a feminine male is not worth having in my life anyway. It has taken me many years to learn this at the expense of almost every antidepressant medication available, counseling, and other medical conditions that were a direct result of my attempted conformance to the "man-box". It is very important to keep in mind that your mental health also directly influences your physical health.

I believe that it it best to tear-up your man-card ripping it to shreds and to be yourself whatever that may be. Living in the man-box and living a lie is no way to live.

Jamie
Last edited by jamie001 on Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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moonshadow
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Re: TOS Question

Post by moonshadow »

I too am somewhat of a "feminine male"... sometimes.

I also used to apply the various gender labels to myself, but here lately it just seems so cumbersome to keep up with the daily changes of gender politics, I finally jettisoned the notion.

Anyway, I think you'll fit in just fine here.
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Re: TOS Question

Post by Grok »

jamie001, it has been commented in previous threads that the "man-box" is the size of a coffin. The coffin is so narrow and rigid that it excludes even middle of the road guys like me, let alone a feminine male.
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Re: TOS Question

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Who you are is who you are! I stopped trying to satisfy the idiots that think you have to conform to their way of thinking and when confronted I just tell them where to go, in no uncertain terms.
We were born as individuals and are not of the hive collective such as bees or The Borg. Therefore we should act as individuals!!

Just my way of thinking, do your own thing and the HE!! with the rest.
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
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Re: TOS Question

Post by SkirtsDad »

jamie001 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:02 am I would have been fine had I been born in the 1700's when men wore fashion that is now considered off-limits.....

.....I am beginning to come around to the thought process that anyone that doesn't like me because I'm a feminine male is not worth having in my life anyway.
My only experience of skirts in a religious setting was as a tourist in shorts. I was provided with a full length light blue, lightweight, drawstring skirt to put on before going around a holy site. That aside, I hope you don't mind me sharing a few thoughts.

Just as you observe that acceptable clothing has a context that has changed with time giving rise to a different acceptability, then likewise, the concepts of masculinity and femininity have altered. A few hundred years ago in China anyone exhibiting traits of masculinity would have been demonstrating gentleness. Today, for instance, the requirement that "men don't cry" has largely been assuaged. In other words, the social construct of masculinity, is evolving, as, of course, is that of femininity. Given this, then it should be acknowledged that the idea of a "feminine male" is therefore bound in time and space.

Having gone through my own journey, I have reached the point where I no longer rely on societal norms to pigeon-hole myself. If someone asks what I am I simply say I am me. If they ask what pronouns, usually saying that they don't want to offend, then I say to them that you can't offend me, call me whatever you like. Despite how I might wish to see myself, I realise that others may well see me differently, in part because they will have grown up in a different environment, with different reference points; but also, in the case of close friends in particular, because they see different qualities in me.

On the idea of what friends one should keep, then I think that's not completely straight forward. Sometime people take time to adjust, especially if they have known you a certain way for some time. They may also be under pressure from their own peer group, such as church goers, to see things in a certain way.

If I were going to go to church I would want a place that accepted me how i am... perhaps like this ;-) https://za.opera.news/za/en/fashion-bea ... 00fbdf41f9

Anyway, in terms of making new friends, then once I committed myself to almost exclusively wearing skirts or dresses, I found that certain people gravitated towards me and I became friends with those.
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Jim
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Re: TOS Question

Post by Jim »

I've never had a problem wearing a skirt to a church, but I haven't worn one as short as some of yours, SkirtsDad.
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