The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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moonshadow
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The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by moonshadow »

I've noticed over the last few years that young men are becoming more and more feminine. Those currently in the upper teen to low 20's range look downright girly, even up close. I've observed them grow their hair out, pull it back into different teasing styles, they're wearing tighter fitting shirts and pants, they're wearing eyeliner and nail polish (I actually witnessed a man who appeared to be in his 50's wearing nail polish a few weeks ago).

Likewise, more and more young women are becoming more and more masculine. Indeed, it seems to be a crazy shook up world.

And yet the skirt seems to be in the female only domain. VERY few men of any age seem to be willing to take the plunge. I've pondered on why this must be so, and I admit to being somewhat vexed by the whole thing.

My six years of experience tells me that there is very little blow back from society when wearing a skirt. I know nobody mis-genders me as a woman when I wear a skirt, yet I myself have often mis-gendered many of these young men.

So what gives...? Why is a skirt "a bridge too far"?

I speculate that it comes down to "monkey see, monkey do" style. Right now "feminine guys" are in, but that "feminine" just hasn't extended to skirts. It's okay for a guy to grow his hair out and style into cute little hairdos, it's okay for him to wear skinny jeans and ankle socks with tight fitting tee-shirts, makeup, piercings, etc. Guys everywhere are doing this, but still very, very few are wearing a skirt.

Ironically of the VERY rare times I have seen a guy wearing a skirt, there is not much else feminine about the guy. Even the skirt itself likely doesn't seem feminine.

Just thinking out loud here...
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by Coder »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 12:35 am
So what gives...? Why is a skirt "a bridge too far"?

I speculate that it comes down to "monkey see, monkey do" style. Right now "feminine guys" are in, but that "feminine" just hasn't extended to skirts. It's okay for a guy to grow his hair out and style into cute little hairdos, it's okay for him to wear skinny jeans and ankle socks with tight fitting tee-shirts, makeup, piercings, etc. Guys everywhere are doing this, but still very, very few are wearing a skirt.

Ironically of the VERY rare times I have seen a guy wearing a skirt, there is not much else feminine about the guy. Even the skirt itself likely doesn't seem feminine.

Just thinking out loud here...
I've had similar thoughts whilst observing "feminine guys".

First off - who's influencing them to adopt those styles - their girlfriends? Pop stars (I've heard k-pop is a fad...)? Freakishly liberal cartoon TV shows (LOL - this is sort of a joke)? Maybe just mimicking what the cool kids are doing now like you said.

Second - why aren't they trying skirts? On a daily basis guys wake up and they essentially have two options - shorts or pants - that's it. There are variations in each, but that is it, and depending on the situation, it's almost always pants. How does one get to a point where you say, "I think I'll try a skirt."? The thought is so out of left field. You have to essentially question everything you've been taught from a young age. The other issue - access to a skirt. No self-respecting guy is going to wear his mom's clothes, and he sure as heck won't wear his sisters. That just leaves going to a store and shopping... the woman's aisle (I'm guessing "nope")... or ordering from the web... assuming they have their own credit card. Essentially, prior to the time they are of working/voting/drinking/driving age they would have to actively try to obtain a skirt to know if it was for them, and after then they have been fully indoctrinated into the bifurcated life. Arguably a girlfriend might have some influence/support in this area... but a general observation - size differences in male/female bodies, the chances of the girlfriend having something the guy can try on that fits is unlikely. Plus, once a skirt enters the picture - one starts to have to evaluate everything - shoes, socks, etc.... and it probably gets more complicated than the average teen male is accustomed to, not to mention the fact that skirts are a bit more inherently dressy than jeans of any variety.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by moonshadow »

Coder wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 1:21 am
Plus, once a skirt enters the picture - one starts to have to evaluate everything - shoes, socks, etc.... and it probably gets more complicated than the average teen male is accustomed to, not to mention the fact that skirts are a bit more inherently dressy than jeans of any variety.
That's true, and I haven't considered it. But looking back at my own skirt wearing genesis, I will admit that it took some time to hone in on my style. I went through a lot of phases and a lot of flops before I found a style that seems to have stood the test of time for me personally. I remember wearing big clunky work shoes with ankle high socks with a midi length skirts and a large baggy tee shirt as a top. About a year later I went into this "ultra-femme" phase where it got downright girly and, (as I look back through the photos..).. weird. Frankly I am somewhat amazed I managed to survive the early years without being laughed right out of town. Some of the stuff I wore was pretty ridiculous.

When a man adds skirt to his wardrobe selection, it really does tend to thrust so much more into the equation rather than simply the skirt itself. So many other factors come into play. What about pockets? Most skirts don't have sufficient pockets, if they have any at all, so now we're adding a purse to the mix. What about the tops (shirts)? Most off the peg skirts are meant to be paired with more feminine cut tops, and while with the right amount of creativity and imagination, a male top can work with a skirt, it still requires work and thought. Gone are the days of simply throwing on an old tee-shirt with a pair of jeans.

So now you've got your skirt of choice and your overall outfit is acceptable. Now you have to learn how to work with the skirt, to tame it, so to speak. You have to learn how to get it to cooperate on windy days. You have to learn how to sit without unintentional flashes, if you choose to work or play in the skirt, how to manage it in situations where it may snag on obstacles, or you may be working on the floor and find your knee always landing on the skirt. When you slide into a bench seat at a restaurant, or getting into a car, you have to fluff it out a certain way so that your legs don't feel constrained while you are sitting.

To most of us, these practices have undoubtedly come second nature, and just part of the skirt wearing experience. But still, this doesn't happen overnight. A skirt is more work than just wearing a femme top, or painting your fingernails.

But on the other hand... I won't mow grass, or hike a mountain side on a humid day any other way. The comfort is simply unparalleled, and the graceful style of a properly fitted skirted outfit is exceptional.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by STEVIE »

The influences for the cosmetics and fashion choices is simple, sheer youthful bloody mindedness.
Blowback, maybe, maybe not but the average kid will see it as rebellious and daring.
We let our hair grow and wore some lurid colours in the 70s but I never saw cosmetics on a anyone other than a celebrity until the late 80s.
Still managed to upset our elders. Skirts would not have been tolerated even among peers but I was wearing one regularly in private by 1972.
Today's youth may not be much different, especially boys. The pack mentality rules and skirted mavericks risk ostracism until some of the alpha males catch on to the idea.
Over here, the kids last Sunday were out in force to celebrate May Day. The girls made a riot of colour and style but the guys were still in the old drabs and I couldn't discern powder and paint at any reasonable distance.
Guys have still a lot of lost ground to recover.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by denimini »

It seems true that young people have adopted many "traditionally feminine" garments and ways but rarely a skirt (so rare I have not yet seen it).
I wonder why. I thought the young were more adventurous and rebellious but perhaps as a group and not individually like us older ffffffellas who don't give a stuff about what people think.

I had an interesting encounter in Broken Hill the other day when I made a visit to the "tip shop". When I got out of the car I noticed a young fellow with longish hair watching me from the passenger seat, he hardly took his eyes off me and predominantly the denim mini skirt. As I walked past I caught his eye and he gave me a nod, a grin and a thumbs up. It could be that many young people would like to wear a skirt but so far there is no "great cool leader of the young" to lead the way.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by skirtingtoday »

denimini wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 10:21 am

I had an interesting encounter in Broken Hill the other day when I made a visit to the "tip shop". When I got out of the car I noticed a young fellow with longish hair watching me from the passenger seat, he hardly took his eyes off me and predominantly the denim mini skirt. As I walked past I caught his eye and he gave me a nod, a grin and a thumbs up. It could be that many young people would like to wear a skirt but so far there is no "great cool leader of the young" to lead the way.
I too have had the same experience when walking back to my car after finishing work. As it happened, a couple were walking ahead of me and wslking the same route. She had a very short mini-dress on which I liked the look of and he was following a few paces behind her. When I reached my car, he turned round, smiled and gave me a nod and a thumbs up! Not sure whether he was agreeing with me on the pretty girl ahead of us or if it was in recognition of my own denim miniskirt i had on at the time but I think it was the latter!
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on" - Winston Churchill.
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" - Joseph Goebbels
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by STEVIE »

There is another aspect, the girls.
If our hormonally hyped up teens thought a skirt would improve their chances of success in the hunt then hey presto.
Alas we, and probably they, know differently!
War Paint yes, better legs ouch.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

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STEVIE wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 5:30 pm
If our hormonally hyped up teens thought a skirt would improve their chances of success in the hunt then hey presto.
Alas we, and probably they, know differently!
War Paint yes, better legs ouch.
Having been an "hormonally hyped-up teen" in an earlier life, I believe I can safely state that they're not quite so bright as might be thought for the simple reason that they are constrained in very, very tiny boxes -- and that includes both sexes/genders/whatever.

The "better legs" argument persists into mid- and even later- life, as proved up by the fact that I got sent home for wearing an above-the-knee skirt (not, by the way of violation of anything in the Dress Code [1]) because one of the women likely got torqued off that I entirely likely had better legs than her. I dutifully went home and changed into a pair of palazzos and returned with a bit of a smirk. I wear that feather in my cap at a jaunty little angle because I'm willing to wager that I perhaps the only 55+ type to have had that done to him (if I was female, it would NOT have happened). (I think I was perhaps 59 at the time.)


[1] I went through the thing with a fine-toothed comb and could not find the language that was used against me. And I know legalese.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by SkirtsDad »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 12:35 am
My six years of experience tells me that there is very little blow back from society when wearing a skirt. I know nobody mis-genders me as a woman when I wear a skirt, yet I myself have often mis-gendered many of these young men.
Moon, I am a little puzzled by you apparent line of reasoning. It seems to rely on the idea (that the cafe is here to oppose) that skirts are intrinsically feminine i.e., you note that young men are dressing in a feminine manor, therefore, why aren't they wearing a skirt? While this might not be your intention, it does seem to me to be what you are saying.
moonshadow wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 12:35 am
I've observed them grow their hair out, pull it back into different teasing styles
Shock horror, they are clearly trying to look like women!! We must have slipped back into the 80s when hair length denoted gender. If they wore skirts too we would have no doubt as all..... perhaps that's the reason they are avoiding skirts.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by moonshadow »

SD,
SkirtsDad wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 11:56 pm
I am a little puzzled by you apparent line of reasoning
Yes... I concur.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

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moonshadow wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 12:57 am
SkirtsDad wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 11:56 pm
I am a little puzzled by you apparent line of reasoning
Yes... I concur.
Such is the power of social conditioning. I have long hair, and have since I was old enough to defy my guardians' demands that I keep it short.

I cut it back to "corporate length" back in the mid 1980s to make a then love-interest happy. She liked it; I felt as though I'd been scalped. I've not cut it since, and I routinely tie it back with bows and other whimsical bits that I playfully call "hair toys". They don't detract from my maleness in the slightest, and I actually get nice comments on them sometimes.

Do not let "group think" overcome individual thought, because the latter is usually a heck of a lot more accurate. We are not lemmings. (At least I hope not!)
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by Jim »

Coder wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 1:21 am
Plus, once a skirt enters the picture - one starts to have to evaluate everything - shoes, socks, etc.... and it probably gets more complicated than the average teen male is accustomed to, not to mention the fact that skirts are a bit more inherently dressy than jeans of any variety.
I spend a lot of my time gardening in skirts. I don't think things like this are "dressy".
old-skirt_s.jpg
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by Coder »

Jim wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 2:06 am
Coder wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 1:21 am
Plus, once a skirt enters the picture - one starts to have to evaluate everything - shoes, socks, etc.... and it probably gets more complicated than the average teen male is accustomed to, not to mention the fact that skirts are a bit more inherently dressy than jeans of any variety.
I spend a lot of my time gardening in skirts. I don't think things like this are "dressy".
old-skirt_s.jpg
While I agree they don’t have to be dressy… they seem more formal in some ways - again wearing a skirt in a rough and tumble way is yet another way to look at skirts that opposes the “normal way of being”. I feel like all those things add up and just challenging one is tough - to take on many fronts takes a special person.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by moonshadow »

Well, what is masculine and what is feminine comes down to arbitrary human customs, no single person gets to decide.

I don't write the rule books, I just read the pages. Some of the rules I abide, some of them I don't... at least when the system let's me... or nobody's looking.. :wink:

SD's point is not lost on me. I no more agree than I disagree with it. Him and I live in two different worlds in two vastly different cultures. As such I have developed a somewhat unique, albeit unpopular opinion on gender.

I don't try to fight the culture that surrounds me, rather I try to coexist peacefully within it. I'm not going to go into it right now as it's getting late, and I'm reasonably sure it will trigger a good number of people.

I'm not saying I'm right, or that my opinion on gender and the masculine/feminine spectrum is rooted in fact, but it is the result of my own observation in my little corner of the universe, and my understanding helps me to square up in this little corner, and though I may be vastly mistaken, I lose no sleep, for at the end of the day, the universe doesn't really care what any of us think... about a piece of fabric.

So think what you will about this piece of fabric. There are no right or wrong answers.
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Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by Bodycon »

crfriend wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 1:05 am
We are not lemmings. (At least I hope not!)
Skirt wearing men are probably just as misunderstood as Lemmings, so there are a few parallels with those little rodents.
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