The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2804
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

denim skirts

Post by Grok »

I have to agree with Jim...those garments are definitely not dressy.
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2804
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by Grok »

I am speculating that these young men are willing to rebel-in small ways. In a way, trying to rebel, while still playing it safe. For them, skirts may indeed be a bridge too far.

On the other hand, the few skirted men that Moon mentioned may have a particular interest in wearing skirts. They may have been curious about skirts, and wanted to try wearing a skirt for years.
User avatar
mishawakaskirt
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 720
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: INDIANA USA
Contact:

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by mishawakaskirt »

Grok wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:25 pm I am speculating that these young men are willing to rebel-in small ways. In a way, trying to rebel, while still playing it safe. For them, skirts may indeed be a bridge too far.

On the other hand, the few skirted men that Moon mentioned may have a particular interest in wearing skirts. They may have been curious about skirts, and wanted to try wearing a skirt for years.

This topic just got me to thinking...
On two separate visits to the same store (Costco)

One visit I saw a guy wearing a black shirt with roses or something similar. The shirt struck me as more feminine than masculine. He also had unkept shoulder length hair. Perhaps in his mid 20s

The other visit I passed a man in average attire. But he had a small purse like bag slung over his shoulder and hanging to his back. (Idea for a purse snatcher)
It was small approximately 5 by 7 by 2 inches. It was brown and sand colored.
I did not see wife, sister, girlfriend. That it could have belonged to. He was perhaps in his mid 30s?
If he was holding it for someone I think he would have set it in the shopping cart.

Call me weird but I still don't like carrying or holding my wife's purse.
I don't know why. I have less difficulty shopping for skirts for me or having to buy my wife Miadol or her "time of the month" needs.

Yet I won't Carry a purse, shop for a skirt while in a skirt.
Or ever dream of buying my wife's monthly supplies while wearing a skirt.

I'm a man of many mysteries that is for sure.

A number of years ago I briefly started carrying a small black digital camera bag, first with a camera, then without the camera. As a hand bag. We had just recently bought a small camera and carrying bag. I discovered that if I moved the inner Velcro divider, put the spare batteries in the front zipper pocket. There was More than enough room for my keys and wallet.
Then at one point I started leaving the camera at home, room for more stuff.
At some point my wife realized I had the camera bag and was not taking any pictures.
She started calling it my murse and or purse.
So I stopped using the camera bag.
So skirts with pockets are a must.

Luckily I didn't / don't listen to her when she talks bad of my skirt wearing. Or I guess I wouldn't be here writing this Post to you fine people.
So even this M I S has a bridge too far. It's just a different kind.
Mishawakaskirt @2wayskirt on Twitter

Avoid the middle man, wear a kilt or skirt.
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4188
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by STEVIE »

mishawakaskirt wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:56 pm So even this M I S has a bridge too far. It's just a different kind.
Hi M.
Actually, you may be unique about your particular "bridges" but certainly not alone.
Skirts aside and drift alert, show me an individual who professes, "zero taboos" and I will show you a liar.
Not to me, you understand, but to themselves.
For myself, body piercing, tattoos and hair dye while not exclusively feminine, are certainly on my own list.
As long as they don't impinge on your inner well being, there's no harm done.
Steve.
User avatar
denimini
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3224
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 am
Location: Outback Australia

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by denimini »

It is strange how we all have different bridges. I have no problem wearing a shoulder bag and I still use Heather's change purse (who passed away 10 years ago) which she called Percy and was small, black soft leather with a silver band. I don't like carrying coins in my pocket or rattling around in the bottom of my shoulder bag and will get it out at the checkout when paying cash. It (he?) doesn't get called Percy much these days.
Many shoulder bags, or messenger bags as they are often called, look like camera bags except a bit flatter and are made from canvas with leather trim.
Some of pleated or flowy mini skirts I consider a bridge too far in general public, although I will wear them in the presence of visitors or when visiting friends.
Mish, here is a link to something very similar to my shouder bag which has served me well for many years. The magnetic catch is good because it is secure but causes no fumbling to open.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/154909575860?
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
jamie001
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:09 am

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by jamie001 »

Please do not call a purse a "man bag" or a "murse". The reason that these names are bad is because they project a negative light on an item that is typically used by women. Another example is the word :man bun". It is a hair bun that has been around for hundreds of years and doesn't need to be called something different because a male is wearing it. The same is true for a purse.

In your case, you are carrying a camera bag to tote bag because that is what it is. It is not a murse.

Think about it. If a woman purchases a backpack that is market toward men, does she go around calling it her "women backpack"? Can you see the absurdity?

The root of the problem is misogyny. According to the man code (which is a total load of BS), a man must not use or associate with any item that is considered feminine. Women do not have such deep seated psychological issues. Marketing departments for skirts, purses, and other items capitalize on this fear that is ingrained in men and passed down from generation to generation. From about 3 years old, a boy is taught that anything feminine is bad and that you must be the opposite of feminine at all times. As we all know, we have feminine and masculine sides regardless if we are male or female.

Let's stop degrading feminine items and unknowingly promoting misogyny by using these improper media created terms. If you are carrying a purse, please call it a purse or bag.

I also don't understand the issue of not wearing a purse when you are wearing a skirt. A skirt is immediately seen a feminine so why not just add a purse to it to have a place to carry your cell phone, keys, and other stuff? Even though I can't personally relate to your comments regarding not carrying a purse, I respect your choices and decision and realize that everyone has limits. I would not wear a pink flowery skirt, so that is my limit.

Jamie
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2804
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by Grok »

Jamie001 described what could be labeled as a general taboo against (what is deemed) feminine. The taboo against MIS is a more specific facet of this. It may be that some members may be reluctant to challenge the generalized taboo, but are wearing skirts because they have a particular interest in this.

I personally would be reluctant to try a purse. I have never had a particular desire to try one. (But I do like skirts with good pockets!). Come to think of it, I might be somewhat hesitant to try jewelry beyond the conventions of traditional masculinity.

Can't see myself using perfume.I would be reluctant to try make up, dying my hair, or nail polish.

BTW, I hate piercings on anybody. :x Why must we mutilate the human body?
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4188
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by STEVIE »

jamie001 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:54 pm The root of the problem is misogyny. According to the man code (which is a total load of BS), a man must not use or associate with any item that is considered feminine.
Hi Jamie.
We may know that the "man code" is way beyond it useful life but not everyone does and it isn't simply misogyny.
I have no idea how old you are but I'm 64 and brainwashed taught to believe that girl things belonged to them exclusively while boy things could be shared. There was never a question of females being regarded as inferior in any respect.
That taboo is so deeply ingrained in boys that they will carry it to their graves unless there is some aspect of their psyche which can actually rise to combat it. Some even end up here at the cafe.
Steve
jamie001
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:09 am

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by jamie001 »

STEVIE wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:28 pm
jamie001 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:54 pm The root of the problem is misogyny. According to the man code (which is a total load of BS), a man must not use or associate with any item that is considered feminine.
Hi Jamie.
We may know that the "man code" is way beyond it useful life but not everyone does and it isn't simply misogyny.
I have no idea how old you are but I'm 64 and brainwashed taught to believe that girl things belonged to them exclusively while boy things could be shared. There was never a question of females being regarded as inferior in any respect.
That taboo is so deeply ingrained in boys that they will carry it to their graves unless there is some aspect of their psyche which can actually rise to combat it. Some even end up here at the cafe.
Steve
It is everyone's choice whether they want to carry the man code with them to the grave and never experience what it is like to be a whole person that expresses both feminine and masculine characteristics. There is no reason to follow the man code unless you absolutely cannot deprogrammed yourself or you are fine with living the man code. Women took on this expression gradually starting in the 1960's. The reason that I got rid of man code taboos is because it was causing me psychological issues. I believe that the man code is the reason that so many men are violent is because they have no real outlets for self expression because they believe that they have live by a set of rules that allows them almost no self expression either emotionally or through fashion. Look back several hundred years and see how men dressed with their high heels and wigs. Those were fashionable men that did not lack self expression. I am 62 and will not take the man code to the grave with me. The man box is essentially an early coffin because men are so limited in expression. 15 years ago, I decided that enough was enough and started being myself. I am a gender non-conforming heterosexual male and that is nothing wrong with that. If you want to understand exactly what that is, please google "gender non-conforming". I welcome questions if you have any.

Jamie
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4188
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by STEVIE »

jamie001 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:48 pm I am a gender non-conforming heterosexual male and that is nothing wrong with that. If you want to understand exactly what that is, please google "gender non-conforming". I welcome questions if you have any.
On the basis that I have been at this for nigh on 50 years, only one.
What makes you so sure that you and Dr Google have all the answers?
I bought my first skirt for myself aged 15 and I would never claim that distinction, every day is a school day.
Steve.
User avatar
mishawakaskirt
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 720
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: INDIANA USA
Contact:

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by mishawakaskirt »

STEVIE wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:07 pm
jamie001 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:48 pm I am a gender non-conforming heterosexual male and that is nothing wrong with that. If you want to understand exactly what that is, please google "gender non-conforming". I welcome questions if you have any.
On the basis that I have been at this for nigh on 50 years, only one.
What makes you so sure that you and Dr Google have all the answers?
I bought my first skirt for myself aged 15 and I would never claim that distinction, every day is a school day.
Steve.
I started buying my own skirts just after that age, I'm thinking I bought my first skirt within 3 months of getting my driver's license.

I'm not into the whole calling myself the gender this or that.
It puzzles me that a man in a skirt is gender what ever???

While a woman is still a woman regardless of what she wears. Skirts, skorts, shorts, dresses, jeans, pants, trousers, toga, yoga pants, black trash bag, is still a woman.

Extend the same courtesy to men. I'm the same man, even if I am in a kilt, shorts, jeans, skirt. I'm not part of a magic act.
Mishawakaskirt @2wayskirt on Twitter

Avoid the middle man, wear a kilt or skirt.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by Coder »

I have mixed feelings about GNC. We don’t generally apply this to women - why do we have to apply it to men? Why is it not sufficient to expands men’s interests into whatever he wants to be interested in, and leave it at that?

IMHO, not trying to argumentative. I feel a lot of the pressure to be non-binary and GNC comes from “the man card”. That is - I can wear what I like, be who I am, and so on. I don’t need a justification to be myself - and those terms are just ways of saying - hey - I’m normal and all but dress or act like a woman. Ergo, reinforcing stereotypes, and getting an approval punch on the man card.
jamie001
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:09 am

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by jamie001 »

Coder wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:53 pm I have mixed feelings about GNC. We don’t generally apply this to women - why do we have to apply it to men? Why is it not sufficient to expands men’s interests into whatever he wants to be interested in, and leave it at that?

IMHO, not trying to argumentative. I feel a lot of the pressure to be non-binary and GNC comes from “the man card”. That is - I can wear what I like, be who I am, and so on. I don’t need a justification to be myself - and those terms are just ways of saying - hey - I’m normal and all but dress or act like a woman. Ergo, reinforcing stereotypes, and getting an approval punch on the man card.
Hi Coder,

I agree with you that we don't apply the GNC term to women whenever they use men's items or participate in activities that are deemed as "masculine" by society. I believe that the problem here is that the man box is so small and restrictive. Prior to the 1960's, the women's box and the man box were about the same size. During the 1960's until now, women began demanding more freedom in terms of participating in activities that were typically considered as masculine and also expanding their fashion choices to include fashion that were previously thought of as "for men only". The women's box grew very large over the years and now it it almost limitless. When a baby girl is born and growing up in today's society, she is told that the sky is the limit and to pursue whatever interests her, and explore the limitless fashion choices that are available. On the other hand, when a boy is born, for a very early age he is immediately taught the man code, the bounds of the man box, and the severe penalties of violating the man code. The doll is taken away from the little boy and he is chastised or punished. When the little girl plays with a truck or toy cars she is encouraged. This is the root of the problem and the man code has been passed down from generation to generation since the beginning of the industrial revolution. This problem needs to be fixed in order to have real equality between men and women. If this problem is not fixed, true equality can never be achieved because any pursuit deemed feminine is looked down upon as inferior.

When most people see a man in a skirt, they immediately think "feminine" because 99 percent of men do not wear skirts. In my case, if you add a women's purse, nail polish, and women's low heel shoes, it reinforces their thought process.

I believe that a man that wears skirts will be thought of as gender nonconforming by the uneducated general public and I don't think that it is a bad thing. If you think about when women first started wearing pants, they were thought of as gender nonconforming and other names that I won't mention. They fought the uphill battle and won. In my case, I would rather be thoughts of as gender nonconforming than homosexual, simply because I'm simply not homosexual. So in my case, gender nonconforming is appropriate.

The psychological definition of gender nonconforming is: "A person whose gender expression differs from society's current norms for males and females".

Society does not expect me to wear a skirt, nail polish, and a purse, so therefore the definition fits me.

I have no problem being thought of as a feminine male because it is really what I am and have always been. It is my true self and there is no denying it. I am also proud of being a feminine male which in some Indian cultures is called "two spirited". Therefore I proudly identify and gender nonconforming.

I understand there there are many folks here that do not identify with a feminine side to their personality and that simply want to wear skirts because they love the look and feel of skirts, but they want to do it as a masculine man with full man card benefits. I respect and support your endeavors to be the person that you really are and to incorporate skirts into your fashion choices as a cisgendered man.

I don't know how many folks are like me that have a feminine side that needs to be expressed and if she isn't expressed, the result is depression. In my case my expression is very limited and is part of my overall presentation. I believe that there are not many folks like me here on skirtcafe.

I cannot relate to crossdressers that attempt to pass as a women, but nevertheless I respect them just as I respect men that want to wear skirts while completely identifying as normal cisgendered men.

I want to apologize if my previous post offended anyone here on the Cafe. I really enjoy this discussion and would like to hear more opinion.

Respectfully,

Jamie
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4188
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by STEVIE »

Jamie
All is cool and apologies if I came back seeming stroppy too.
Oddly, from your words, I pegged you as a lot younger.
My own problem with the concept of GNC is that I was aware of it at five years old but I didn't have the words.
I never wanted to be a girl but I damned well envied their clothes.
My catharsis was about 30 years ago when I grew the beard and went to work full-time skirted 10 years ago. All of that is well documented around here somewhere or other.
Oh I also wear skirts, dresses, heels, carry a handbag/purse and that can mess with some peoples heads, not necessarily uneducated either.
Even more so when I also smoked a pipe.
Now, back to the original question, has anyone else got a bridge they'd consider too far, it is a really pertinent point?
Steve.
KiltedintheValley
Active Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:57 am

Re: The skirt... still a bridge too far it seems.

Post by KiltedintheValley »

I wear skirts and have long hair. I don't normally paint my nails (I do paint my toes in the winter at times). I have no tattoos or piercings (I'd rather spend that money on my home or hobbies :D ). The only jewelry I wear is my wedding band, a watch, and my grandfather's High School class ring.

Here's where the bridge may still be a bit too far...I don't wear a skirt when I am involved in anything church related. I keep it only to my kilts in those situations. Everywhere else, and with everyone else, I am in a skirt of some sort. Even in the winter.
"Be weird. Be random. Be who you are, because you never know who would love the person you hide." - Alan Watts

Life is too short to talk yourself out of wearing what you want because “I can’t pull off that look”.
Post Reply