Exhibition at the V&A

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
User avatar
Myopic Bookworm
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 659
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:12 pm
Location: SW England (Cotswolds)

Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Myopic Bookworm »

Hi. I had a very interesting couple of hours at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London today, visiting their exhibition "Fashioning Masculinities" ( https://www.vam.ac.uk/exhibitions/fashi ... f-menswear ). I have to say there were not very many skirts in evidence (other than the one I was wearing), but it was a good spread of historic and contemporary men's clothing, ranging from Tudor underwear through 18th century flamboyance and 19th century understatement to recent creations for gender-bending celebrities. Mainly British with some French, American, etc., as that is the focus of the museum's collections. There was lots of writing about the projection of images of masculinity through clothing, and the more recent subversion of gender delineation. Worth a look if you're near London.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by crfriend »

Myopic Bookworm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:00 pmHi. I had a very interesting couple of hours at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London today, visiting their exhibition "Fashioning Masculinities" ( https://www.vam.ac.uk/exhibitions/fashi ... f-menswear ). I have to say there were not very many skirts in evidence (other than the one I was wearing), but it was a good spread of historic and contemporary men's clothing, ranging from Tudor underwear through 18th century flamboyance and 19th century understatement to recent creations for gender-bending celebrities.
ARRGH!!! And right out of the gate thay get it wrong:
At a moment of unprecedented creativity in men's fashion and reflection on gender, this exhibition explores how designers, tailors and artists – and their clients and sitters – have constructed and performed masculinity, and unpicked it at the seams.
Dammit.

The bolding there is mine to point out where they go off the rails.

The first, and primary, objection is the slavish notion that any male who dares to deviate from the established uniform is making a "gender statement"(season that to taste). That statement is fallacious because it fails to capture the simple fact that it may just be a rebellious statement that what's accepted as "male" fashion now is utter crap. Yes, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. However, this argument is getting pervasive enough to make me just give the Hell up and dumb down to Dockers and t-shirts. (Although I think I'd rather be dead.)

On the second, masculinity is most assuredly NOT "performance art". It is a state of being. One cannot "put it on" at the start of the day and "take it off" when one gets home. (Quite unlike clothing.)

Blast it, this damned hill gets steeper and steeper every time I look at it, and I'm looking down-slope for the most part. Whither the common man who may still be looking to free himself from lemming-hood?
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Coder »

crfriend wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:47 pm The first, and primary, objection is the slavish notion that any male who dares to deviate from the established uniform is making a "gender statement"(season that to taste). That statement is fallacious because it fails to capture the simple fact that it may just be a rebellious statement that what's accepted as "male" fashion now is utter crap. Yes, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. However, this argument is getting pervasive enough to make me just give the Hell up and dumb down to Dockers and t-shirts. (Although I think I'd rather be dead.)
Your comment was in regards to reflection on gender. I think it's inescapable to not reflect on gender when stepping outside of "regular mens wear". It isn't so much that wearing a skirt is a "gender statement" - but when a guy decides to wear a skirt he has to think - cannot escape the thought - "I am wearing what women typically wear". In my opinion that is a reflection on gender - even if the final belief is, "I'm a man and can wear what I darn well please", you still have to work your way through the thought process. Ultimately, I too want skirts and such to be the domain of all, ungendered to a degree, and not at all reflecting on the wearer's gender.

I'm not disagreeing with you - I just don't think society is at the point yet where it can look at a performative act like men wearing womenswear (as women wear menswear) and not see some gender reason. Long hair, earrings, and even to some degree nail polish have normalized... it feels like we are getting closer with skirts and such but we have to live with these stupid hot takes so long as we aren't the ones designing these exhibits, writing the articles, and so forth.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:46 amI just don't think society is at the point yet where it can look at a performative act like men wearing womenswear (as women wear menswear) and not see some gender reason.
And here's where the battle-line might well be drawn. There is precisely nothing other than socialisation that equates skirts with womanhood. Zero. Other cultures do just fine with guys wearing skirts. The continued insistence on confusing the two is inhibiting the uptake in what passes for the "west".

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

But, as you point out, we're not the ones writing the copy for the exhibits, the psychological profiles, nor public opinion.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Kirbstone
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Kirbstone »

I suppose the unassailable proof of one's masculinity lies not with any clothing worn, but with progeny.

Having produced four such, we drew the line and need no further clarification. The progeny then got to work to expand the family 'dynasty' now numbering seventeen.......

Tom
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by crfriend »

Kirbstone wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:25 amI suppose the unassailable proof of one's masculinity lies not with any clothing worn, but with progeny.
Ah, but what then does one do with guys like me who have no progeny deciding fairly early on that the trajectory of humanity was not worthy of bringing a new life into it who would potentially hate the parents for "doing the deed"?
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Kirbstone
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Kirbstone »

Carl,
Such profound thoughts about the Future of the Planet and what role our offsprings might play in it didn't enter into our young minds when we were busy procreating. We were busy promoting our parents to grandparenthood.

Frankly, in my father's case, the limitless joy we brought to him on presenting him with his first grandchild just months before his (predicted) departure prompted him on first seeing our first-born, named after him was 'The Lord giveth and He taketh away'. He was gone just months after that.

That transcends all other considerations.

To answer your question 'What does one do...'? Nothing. Each to their own. There is no 'obligation' to procreate and at the rate Humanity is currently going, perhaps fewer of us should do that.

Tom
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
Bodycon
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:25 pm

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Bodycon »

Kirbstone wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:25 am I suppose the unassailable proof of one's masculinity lies not with any clothing worn, but with progeny.
You suppose wrong.

Masculinity and biological sex and not the same thing.

How about if someone stated that "Masculinity is about being at peace with oneself and being able to face the world as you are, in the body you are in and the clothes you wish to wear"? Which is an often stated opinion. Would you pass that test?
User avatar
Myopic Bookworm
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 659
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:12 pm
Location: SW England (Cotswolds)

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Myopic Bookworm »

I can't speak for the curators, and I have not yet ploughed through the very large book which accompanies the exhibition, but the cross-gender thing was not the only theme coming through. Another was the illustration of how the whole idea of male costume as display was gradually constrained for men into a narrower and narrower band of possibilities, partly as a result of the Enlightenment and its emphasis on rationality. (Also, though I didn't see the exhibition say this, the Evangelical movement and its emphasis on humility and modesty.)
crfriend wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:58 am
Coder wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:46 amI just don't think society is at the point yet where it can look at a performative act like men wearing womenswear (as women wear menswear) and not see some gender reason.
There is precisely nothing other than socialisation that equates skirts with womanhood.
I admit to having very mixed (confused?) responses to the issues. Three decades of wearing a kilt has taught me that society is quite prepared to accept this with little or no gender reference (other than occasional facetious banter by the ignorant). Four months of experimenting with other forms of skirt has led me into huge considerations of the kind alluded to. Although I am increasingly at ease with what one might call the Queer agenda, which obviously had a good deal of input into the thrust of the exhibition (focused as it is on "fashion" rather than everyday clothing), I identify with it myself only with some discomfort. This forum is very useful in demonstrating what a wide range of motives people have for challenging popular perceptions in the (almost ridiculously) specific context of men wearing things other than trousers.

You can't go around with a notice on your back explaining why you are wearing a skirt. I have found it a fascinating yet challenging process, navigating my own resentment of social restriction on men's clothing. I appreciate the frustration of those who just want to be men in non-bifurcated garments, but I cannot deny that there is an element of nonconformist gender expression in my own motivation. I wouldn't object to full-on cross-dressing if I thought I had a hope in hell of passing, but I don't, and my family and social context make it very hard to explore whatever non-binary identity might mean. I am not "out" as bisexual, except to myself. I prefer to seek ways of dressing which still allow me to identify as unambiguously male, while pushing the boundaries of what is perceived as masculine (or of what is perceived as feminine but acceptable for men), and without presenting as either gay or trans.

PS I like Bodycon's statement: but you could substitute "Femininity" for "Masculinity" without difficulty, which rather undermines the attempt at definition!
Bodycon
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:25 pm

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Bodycon »

Myopic Bookworm wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:55 am PS I like Bodycon's statement: but you could substitute "Femininity" for "Masculinity" without difficulty, which rather undermines the attempt at definition!
Does it undermine?

Are masculinity and femininity not really just different positions (in behaviour and appearance perhaps) on the spectrum of self identity?
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Coder »

Myopic Bookworm wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:55 am I can't speak for the curators, and I have not yet ploughed through the very large book which accompanies the exhibition, but the cross-gender thing was not the only theme coming through. Another was the illustration of how the whole idea of male costume as display was gradually constrained for men into a narrower and narrower band of possibilities, partly as a result of the Enlightenment and its emphasis on rationality.
I've heard this before too - if I'm understanding it properly - rationality plays a huge role in the tug of war I face between wearing what I want and what "makes the most sense". I'm not speaking of pants when doing grunt work - rather the office setting where anything (appropriate) can be worn. Why wear a skirt? It takes more effort to coordinate/colder/etc... Or say a piece of jewelry - necklace, bracelet, and so forth - none of those serve any practical purpose except calling attention to the wearer.
Myopic Bookworm wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:55 am This forum is very useful in demonstrating what a wide range of motives people have for challenging popular perceptions in the (almost ridiculously) specific context of men wearing things other than trousers.
LOL - this actually gave me some food for thought. If someone were to challenge my choices, I could simply say, "Are you telling me I'm the one with the problem? There are thousands of clothing choices, but because I'm a man, I'm restricted to one form of expression?" That being said, with my limited outings, no one has yet to say anything negative so I hopefully will never have to deal with that kind.
Myopic Bookworm wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:55 am You can't go around with a notice on your back explaining why you are wearing a skirt.
But you can wear a QR code that links to a website... I kid...
User avatar
Kirbstone
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Kirbstone »

We'll agree to differ then, BC.

Tom
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
geron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:31 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by geron »

Myopic Bookworm wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:55 am I can't speak for the curators, and I have not yet ploughed through the very large book which accompanies the exhibition,
Sounds as if I'd better stick with the V&A's previous excursion into this territory: the accompanying book was Men in Skirts, by Andrew Bolton (2003). At least it begins encouragingly: the opening words are "The male skirt is always on the verge of arrival or widespread acceptance".
32920222013.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by crfriend »

geron wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:10 pmSounds as if I'd better stick with the V&A's previous excursion into this territory: the accompanying book was Men in Skirts, by Andrew Bolton (2003). At least it begins encouragingly: the opening words are "The male skirt is always on the verge of arrival or widespread acceptance".
Indeed, the original was vastly better and more apropos than its successor. Sadly, that seems to be a common occurrence.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Pdxfashionpioneer
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: Exhibition at the V&A

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Carl said,
Blast it, this damned hill gets steeper and steeper every time I look at it, and I'm looking down-slope for the most part.

Hello Carl,

As a seasoned sailor you know full well that one can’t sail directly into a headwind and expect to make headway and get to one’s destination.

Oh sure, a favorable tide might prevail over head on breeze. But we all know that tides turn with metronomic regularity and with the same force in one direction as the other.

Similarly, a current might carry you toward the shore. But before making landfall, currents inevitably veer off and in due course are dissipated by the first clime opposite from their origin.

No sir, one of the first lessons a sailor learns is that when you encounter a headwind, you ease your helm until you start making headway and learn how to tack. A mature mariner, such as yourself, learn how to find that magical point where the force of the wind is matched by the resistance of the implacable sea against your shapely hull so that you make the best speed and make the most of the aerodynamic effect of the wind and air playing around the structure of your sails.

Is it entirely lost on you that our beautiful and bountiful Mother Nature was trying to teach you a life lesson that is as true in the realm of the natural world as it is in the realm of human nature?

Oh, I know that as a child you were bullied and called names; who among us here in the Skirt Café weren’t? Isn’t it about time that you stop surrendering your personal power to those little a$$holes and stop trying to prove something to those less-thans?

I don’t like being called names any more than anyone else. Nor do I feel there is any label that captures the totality of my personhood. In fact, I feel only the most shallow or the least self-aware feel otherwise. But I recognize that for their convenience, most people, from time to time, feel the need to apply labels to the people they are interacting with. Just so long as the label someone puts on me comes reasonably close to my self-identification of the personal characteristic they feel they need to label, I’m satisfied. What’s so hard about that?

Just as there’s an obvious advantage to easing a sailboat’s helm in the face of a countervailing wind, I feel there’s some very real advantages to us making our peace with the labels currently used to describe men who wear skirts. In the first place, it gets us beyond discussing what we’re wearing and back to the matter at hand. At that point they can decide for themselves how masculine and manly they feel we are as individuals.

If I’m mistaken for something I’m not, I will only correct the person misidentifying me if I feel I’ll interact with them or anyone in earshot again. Trust me, since I let my hair grow out, I’ve been mistaken for a woman too many times to count. I’m also quite sure I’ve been mistaken for a woman in transition to her true identity. I’ve probably even been mistaken for a homosexual; although I have only once been asked if that was case.

This approach makes the everyday interactions of life go a whole lot more smoothly.

On a larger plane, by going with the flow of being categorized as “gender non-conforming” of “gender fluid,” we can more easily ally ourselves with the Queer* Community who have done us a lot of good. It was they who have lobbied for and gotten enacted into law the protections for gender expression (such as men wearing skirts and dresses in public, to work, etc.) in dozens of jurisdictions here in the US and as I understand it, the whole of the United Kingdom.

Beyond the sheer gratitude factor is the fact that in the legal realm there is plenty more work to be done. In numbers, there is strength.

As we’re seeing in the legal right to abortions, a determined enough group of people can pull the levers of government sufficiently hard to reverse legal rights. So, it is in our best interests going forward to do what we can to advance the legal right to be and social acceptance of being different.

Make no mistake, the politicians who are promoting the Culture War are doing so for entirely selfish and cynical reasons. Their sole purpose is the pursuit of power. And no matter how hard we bellow, pout and stamp our feet, they make no meaningful distinction between those of us who are heterosexual males and the other folks who unabashedly identify as members of the Queer community. It’s an age-old truism that, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

Carl, you know much better than I, how exhilarating those moments are when you find just the right angle to produce the perfect tack and get all of the forces of nature working on your behalf. That those moments are even more pleasurable than those being stuck in irons are frustrating.

It works the same way in human affairs. So, I strongly suggest you ease your helm by accepting the descriptors in common currency and rest assured that sooner than any of us think, the current culture wars around gender will be won by the forces of reason. With that gender will stop being of any concern to anyone at any time. Except, of course, when they’re considering sexual partners … and even there I expect we’ll see lots more open-mindedness than currently.

The last time I brought up this question of nomenclature, Carl said he was offended by what I said. Carl, I’m sorry you feel offended, but I honestly see no objective reason for it. I simply stated that under current definitions you and I and every other participant in the Skirt Café who goes out in public in a skirt does so against the current norms for men in our society. So, I was simply stating facts.

Finally, I would be remiss if I didn’t thank you personally and on the behalf of the rest of us who visit the Skirt Café for keeping it going for as long as you have. Finding it seven years ago was very consequential to my unveiling my authentic self. I have no idea how I could have done that without the Skirt Café. Coming out as a gender-fluid, heterosexual male not only opened me up to the clothing options I have wanted my whole life, but also opened me up to a better and deeper understanding of myself. It also set me free of many other unnecessary and therefore unhealthy constraints I had put on myself.


*Anymore, “Queer” does not mean “homosexual,” it’s a catchall for all of us who don’t fit the strictures of the Gender Binary in regards to whom we love or how we see or present ourselves.

And no, I most certainly NOT trying to put you or anyone else into a "pink box;" I'm trying to get those on this forum who haven't seen it already that "Denial isn't just a river in Egypt."
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
Post Reply