It's Now Official

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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Sinned
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Re: It's Now Official

Post by Sinned »

To get back to my situation at work. I am confident that if I did want to wear a skirt at work I could. We have a forum on out intranet for gender non-conformists. I have resisted joining it. I don't know why but maybe my retirement, when I can gar a round tuit, means it probably would nit be worth my while. Every year we have to read and sign an Equalities module and its content very definitely specifies gender and sexual equalities for the company. I have worn skirts on charity days, much to the disgust of my wife, and colleagues have been supportive with little reaction from customers. No, the main reason I don't is my wife's opposition.

As to this trans debate my take is that, irrespective of how they describe themselves and what clothes and such they wear, if they are still in possession of a penis then they are still male. Those athletes that have gone through male puberty should not be allowed to compete in female events. It is unfair to women.
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Re: It's Now Official

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rivegauche wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:54 am All shops in the UK are happy for men (however dressed) to use the same fitting rooms as women. I have never heard of an objection from a customer.
Sorry Rivegauche but that is way too sweeping, none of us can possibly know "all" the potential issues.
I have personal knowledge of one female, a colleague who would object in the strongest most vocal terms if she encountered a "male"
in a "female" preserve. I also rather doubt that the presence of a third party would appease her either.
For what it is worth, I have used male toilets in a variety of places and haven't had any issues with regard to the skirts.
Sinned wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:05 pm To get back to my situation at work. I am confident that if I did want to wear a skirt at work I could. We have a forum on out intranet for gender non-conformists. I have resisted joining it. I don't know why but maybe my retirement, when I can gar a round tuit, means it probably would nit be worth my while. Every year we have to read and sign an Equalities module and its content very definitely specifies gender and sexual equalities for the company. I have worn skirts on charity days, much to the disgust of my wife, and colleagues have been supportive with little reaction from customers. No, the main reason I don't is my wife's opposition.

As to this trans debate my take is that, irrespective of how they describe themselves and what clothes and such they wear, if they are still in possession of a penis then they are still male. Those athletes that have gone through male puberty should not be allowed to compete in female events. It is unfair to women.
Hi Dennis
As far as your employer is concerned, they deserve some kudos for the policy you describe. I'd still love to hear that it has been fully tested by a skirted guy doing all their shifts so attired without any let or hindrance though.
Now I will posit a scenario to you and pretty sure this will be familiar territory. A male who works in "Aunty Betty's", decides that he wishes to wear a skirt at work just like his female colleagues. Obviously the whole kit except he presents as a male and there is no "transgender" attachment.
His bosses would be quite legally entitled to dismiss him if they felt so moved.
For the uninitiated "Betty's" is a York Cafe where the servers dress in period costume. It is a very lucrative part of the tourist trade in the city.
The "costume" is part of the trademark so I rather think the uniform policy would be less open to any deviation from the accepted norms.

Finally, in the best Cafe tradition we have come a long long way from the original thought and now it is trans people in sport. I'm not going into that but does it not demonstrate that the media is plain wrong? There seems to be so much angst and emotion surrounding agender clothing that "fashion" becomes irrelevant to meaningful dialogue.
Steve.
Last edited by denimini on Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's Now Official

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Since I started this thread I feel it’s in my rights to address the digressions.

The Olympic committees, I believe it is, have set a standard for trans- athletes. Namely, that they are ineligible to compete as the sex they are transitioning to for the first year of their hormone therapy. The reason being that it takes that long for the athlete’s body to readjust its muscle mass and percentage of fat. So, after a year’s worth of hormone therapy the body of an athlete born as a male, with or without bottom surgery, would, effectively, have a female body and no inherent advantage over the women she is competing with.

In a sense, the media does have it wrong; they’re giving more notice to the objectors than they deserve. On each issue in the culture war, the latest survey on the subject shows that the majority support, young trans-people, giving them equal treatment as their authentic selves, support more discussions of gender and race issues in public schools, etc. It is only a noisy minority (20-some to 30-some %) who feel otherwise.

The overwhelming majority said in this survey they have no problem with today’s gender-fluidity in clothing.

In short, stop looking for issues that don’t exist. Stop being miserable and start living as your authentic self!!
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Re: It's Now Official

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:48 am In short, stop looking for issues that don’t exist. Stop being miserable and start living as your authentic self!!
Man, the tone of that so reminds me of some of my family members.
If it weren't for the context, they'd treat you like Royalty or even Maggie Thatcher.
On a broad level I absolutely agree but for individuals, maybe cut some slack from both perspectives?
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Re: It's Now Official

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Dave, as far as I know once through puberty and young adulthood the male body retains most of the male muscle mass for a good few years even after taking testosterone inhibiting drugs. Certainly longer than the one year that seems to be being touted. Not a doctor but there must be some physical strength tests that can be administered.
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Re: It's Now Official

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Doesn’t it make sense that the governing body that set that standard based it on the best science available? Trans women are not only receiving testosterone blockers, but also female hormones that causes the body to shed muscle mass and add fat in all the right places.

In the meantime, the athlete is still training so a strength test wouldn’t prove anything. Maybe, as a culture, we’re too obsessed with sports. Part of the angst in the US is that high school women are being aced out of college admissions and scholarships by trans women.

In the first place, there aren’t enough such athletes to worry about. But more to the point, why give such preferences to athletes. Haven’t we seen enough sexual abuse and admissions fraud related to collegiate athletics to see that maybe we’ve taken that all too far.
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Re: It's Now Official

Post by Uncle Al »

I'm a bit confused here.

So far, the discussion has been about M to F athletes.
Has anyone found, or read about, any discussions on F to M athletes :?:
I'm sure there are some out there but they're not in the news.
They're not "Headline Makers". Seems to me to be pretty One-Sided
with in the press(biased as they are).

Just curious...... :D

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Re: It's Now Official

Post by moonshadow »

Uncle Al wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:24 am So far, the discussion has been about M to F athletes.
Has anyone found, or read about, any discussions on F to M athletes
No.. it's only trans-girls.

Nobody has any issues with trans-boys. And from what I read in the news clippings, the bills specifically target trans-girls.

The media isn't reporting on trans-boys because there is nothing to report.
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Re: It's Now Official

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Sinned wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:27 pm ... but there must be some physical strength tests that can be administered.
Yes, of course.  If stronger people were categorised separately from weaker ones, regardless of the cause, competitive physical sport would be a lot fairer.  There are many factors besides to birth sex which contribute to competitive sport being unfair; proper measurement would correct for them.  What an outcry there would be as some of our top athletes were demoted because they were born with stronger bodies.  Remember the outcry when testosterone levels were measured and some people assigned as "women" at birth suddenly found they had natural levels that were above the limit and were in danger of being banned?  

Competitive sport is inherently unfair; this recent obsession with trans athletes has shone a spotlight on just one aspect of it.
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Re: It's Now Official

Post by rode_kater »

It's all moral outrage about a non-issue. Trans-athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics for over 16 years. No medals, no records. These issues should be decided by the sporting bodies themselves, not by random people in the streets and definitely not by lawmakers (or courts for that matter).

As pelmet points out competitive sports are by their very nature unfair. I think commercial competitive sports are largely a waste of time, but we should not forget: give them their bread and circuses. It's all a distraction from the real issues. People bankrupted by healthcare expenses, rises costs of living causing people to go hungry, people having to work three jobs to make ends meet. Never mind that, we have a trans-athlete who won in a random meet on a distance nobody trains for because it's not an Olympic category (because no-one else uses yards), miles away from any kind of record, lets get all outraged about that

It'd be ridiculous if it weren't so sad.
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Re: It's Now Official

Post by Midas »

It’s about money. An average male sportsperson can be a top flight one in women’s sport. The difference can be serious money.
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Re: It's Now Official

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Midas wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:39 pm It’s about money. An average male sportsperson can be a top flight one in women’s sport. The difference can be serious money.
And the head of the nail has been struck!!!
Of course it's all about money, what else could it be about?
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Re: It's Now Official

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And the head of the nail has been struck!!!
Of course it's all about money, what else could it be about?

Oh. My. God!!! The hullaballoo is NOT about money. Nobody in their right mind is going to change sexes simply to gain an imaginary edge in their sport and thereby make money at it. So far, the experience has been that an M to F trans athlete who was a mediocre competitor as a male is equally mediocre when they regain eligibility as a female. At the high school level, which is the earliest that anyone would be getting hormones, the stakes just aren't worth the expense, let alone the disruption to one's body and life.

No, what the ruckus is about is creating a controversy out of thin air to keep the culture wars blazing and get that other irresistible motivator, Power!

Just for the record, I read about an F to M Olympic power lifter who competed in the last Olympics. And yes, he washed out earlier than his previous performances suggested because of the media pressure. And no, he wasn't representing the US.
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's Now Official

Post by pelmut »

According to one source,the number of trans athletes in Olympic sports is 1 per 15,429,409 (19 different sports bodies replied) and the number in all sports is 63 per 32,213,036 (31 different sports bodies replied).  That puts the 'problem' in perspective.
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Re: It's Now Official

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:54 am
And the head of the nail has been struck!!!
Of course it's all about money, what else could it be about?

Oh. My. God!!! The hullaballoo is NOT about money. Nobody in their right mind is going to change sexes simply to gain an imaginary edge in their sport and thereby make money at it. So far, the experience has been that an M to F trans athlete who was a mediocre competitor as a male is equally mediocre when they regain eligibility as a female. At the high school level, which is the earliest that anyone would be getting hormones, the stakes just aren't worth the expense, let alone the disruption to one's body and life.

No what the ruckus is about is creating a controversy out of thin air to keep the culture wars blazing and get that other irresistible motivator, Power!

Just for the record, I read about an F to M Olympic power lifter who competed in the last Olympics. And yes, he washed out earlier than his previous performances suggested because of the media pressure. And no, she wasn't representing the US.
Pdx is right. Republicans (or, as I call them, "Qpublicans" because they have QAnon nutcases in their ranks) are using this issue to gin up manufactured outrage about males pretending to be females competing in women's sports. The fact is, Republicans never gave so much as half a damn about women's sports until Lia Thomas won that swimming meet, hell, if they thought they could get away with it, the GOP would find a way to abolish Title IX.
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