I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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greenboots
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I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

Post by greenboots »

We’ve often discussed here the complaint from other halves that wearing skirts is feminine and therefore undermines our masculinity. How does that square with the latest range from Mango, where all the women strike what have traditionally been masculine poses? You’d be hard pressed in some of these images to work out if it’s a man or woman!

See here: https://shop.mango.com/gb/women/feature ... _d18713172
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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greenboots wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:13 pmHow does that square with the latest range from Mango, where all the women strike what have traditionally been masculine poses? You’d be hard pressed in some of these images to work out if it’s a man or woman!
That squares with my assertion that "masculinity" has been being so badly co-opted over the years that it's pushed men into "machismo" (which is a very, very dark parody of masculinity) and that it continues apace.

Whither softness, grace, and delicacy for both men and women? Has it all been replaced with the macho ideal? What gives?

Both genders are capable of all those things. Why deny it to not only one (men), but also to women as well? Where will this end?
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

Post by Sinned »

While one could argue, despite the really short hair, that the models are women ( the decolletage exposure among others ) I take your point on the poses which have a very masculine, almost aggressive manner. This is consistent throughout the portfolio.
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

Post by denimini »

I am not sure about genderising posture. The slumped in chair poses with legs apart could be associated (historically) more with men than women.
I prefer to describe poses as relaxed, aggressive, confident, demure, etc. rather than by stereotypical gender behaviour. Otherwise we get into the same constraints of behaviour as we do with clothing choice.
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

Post by STEVIE »

Hi Greenboots
I'm not sure that we need to lament this passing.
Perhaps, if we could remove the implied restraints of masculinity and femininity, the world would be a better place.
I was in the St James centre yesterday, Mango was actually one of my ports of call.
Once more, I was quite struck by the number of dresses on offer in comparison to skirts.
Steve.
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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STEVIE wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:04 am Hi Greenboots
Once more, I was quite struck by the number of dresses on offer in comparison to skirts.
Steve.
Sadly the same is true in many stores. M&S sale section at the Gyle had no skirts this week but lots of dresses. (Not that dresses are bad, per se, but while I just about get away with wearing skirts some of the time, there would be a revolt at home if I put on a dress 👗 :o )

Steven
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

Post by greenboots »

STEVIE wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:04 am I'm not sure that we need to lament this passing.
I’m less bothered about that than the converse: men wearing skirts accused of being feminine and therefore less manly. That’s the reality for many of us at home (including me). Contrast that with the way women in supposedly “feminine” outfits strut around like they own the place, with less grace than many men.
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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greenboots wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:41 am I’m less bothered about that than the converse: men wearing skirts accused of being feminine and therefore less manly. That’s the reality for many of us at home (including me). Contrast that with the way women in supposedly “feminine” outfits strut around like they own the place, with less grace than many men.
Hi Greenboots.
I really can empathise with the sentiments which you are expressing here. Domestic difficulties and I are constant companions.
As for the gender stereotype, I can only say that I am doing my level best to challenge that on as many fronts as possible.
Auld Reekie saw me out and about yesterday and dare I say, loud, proud and frocked!
Stared at, probably, bothered, emphatically not? I may even have been spotted by someone known to you. An elderly gent who from a bit of eavesdropping may work for CLC or it's modern equivalent?
My only problem was that I could not find a suitable skirt for my purposes. I did see a dress in John Lewis and for them, cheap at £45. Oh, and the weather wasn't especially nice either.
Alas, I already have 2 in my collection which are unworn.
Steve.
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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greenboots wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:41 am
STEVIE wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:04 am I'm not sure that we need to lament this passing.
I’m less bothered about that than the converse: men wearing skirts accused of being feminine and therefore less manly. That’s the reality for many of us at home (including me). Contrast that with the way women in supposedly “feminine” outfits strut around like they own the place, with less grace than many men.
I have gotten that impression too - but to some degree clothing can empower someone if they feel especially well dressed or a kicka55 combo (flowery dress + combat boots). And, unless you are around them every day - that may just be their general attitude.

When I have seen men who break clothing gender boundaries on TV - except on one rare occasion - they are often very effeminate. They have a lispy voice, outlandish clothes, and usually wear makeup or are well groomed. I'm not saying those things are wrong - but they don't represent the majority of how men are, and so give me the impression that anyone who breaks boundaries must not only change their clothing, but their voice/behavior as well. Maybe I watch too many Food Network challenges :P
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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Coder wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:36 pmWhen I have seen men who break clothing gender boundaries on TV - except on one rare occasion - they are often very effeminate. They have a lispy voice, outlandish clothes, and usually wear makeup or are well groomed.
That's the way the mass media want to -- and will -- portray the idea. It's flat wrong, of course, but then again a whole lot that the mass media does is wrong, too. The media is not our friend in this regard.

From a practical perspective, I'm as masculine in a skirt-rig as I am in a trousered one; masculinity comes from within, not something you "put on" (unless it's all airs). In the week I was in Savannah, GA I received two negative reactions, one from a jealous and insecure ex-boyfriend and one from somebody who was clearly still drunk and hung over early one morning. The second I merely gave a wide berth to and the former required a couple of changes to the game-plan following a threat of personal violence. On the other hand, I received loads of nice comments, smiles, and a couple of requests for photos (which were granted).
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

Post by Coder »

crfriend wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:30 pm The second I merely gave a wide berth to and the former required a couple of changes to the game-plan following a threat of personal violence.
What is wrong with people? Why do people resort to violence all the time? sigh
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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Coder wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:36 pmWhat is wrong with people? Why do people resort to violence all the time? sigh
Note that the descriptors of the individual are telling -- "jealous" and "insecure" -- a lethal combination. This poor bloke was all of a sudden confronted with somebody non-jealous (nothing to be jealous about at the moment) and extremely secure in who he is; it wigged him right out into the next time-zone. It was well understood, and somewhat anticipated, however I'd received assurances that it wouldn't be an issue. Well, it was.
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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I’m not sure feminine exists any more!
It does.
-Andrea
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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Coder wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:36 pm When I have seen men who break clothing gender boundaries on TV - except on one rare occasion - they are often very effeminate. They have a lispy voice, outlandish clothes, and usually wear makeup or are well groomed.
Take a look around the forum and you will see exactly the same looks on some peoples photographs. Can't comment on the lispy voices, however I'm sure there will be a few. That doesn't represent the majority, but it does represent a minority who stand out.

The great conundrum is that most MIS just want to wear them without any attention, but conversely, without attention, the word is not spread and others are not encouraged. My biggest fear is that those who are outlandish (set your own criteria) are just seen as freaks and dismissed while tarring the more modest MIS with the same brush.

Feminine and femininity exist but are not always overtly on show and to be fair has little to do with clothing. Body Language - Mannerisms and what is conveyed with the eyes play a bigger part than haircuts and jeans.
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Re: I’m not sure feminine exists any more!

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Bodycon wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:03 pm
Coder wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:36 pm When I have seen men who break clothing gender boundaries on TV - except on one rare occasion - they are often very effeminate. They have a lispy voice, outlandish clothes, and usually wear makeup or are well groomed.
Take a look around the forum and you will see exactly the same looks on some peoples photographs. Can't comment on the lispy voices, however I'm sure there will be a few. That doesn't represent the majority, but it does represent a minority who stand out.
It's hard not to be outlandish when wearing clothing that isn't typical. One could stick with drab colors or materials (what I tend to do), and wear sensible shoes. I’m talking about things like shaped eyebrows, makeup (eyeliner of some sort), over-the-top eyewear, sequined/bedazzled jackets, nail polish (I've tried this on occasion, but the hassle and look isn't really me). Basic grooming (nicely cut hair / trimmed fingernails) isn't an issue in my eye. Yes, some here wear provocative or ultra-feminine styles… but it seems different somehow (maybe because they bring more than just 5 minutes on the tv screen). Ultimately what I'm getting at: you have someone like me as a kid watching television, I certainly don't identify with the "wispy" person but like part of their outfit - but I now have a conflict. Since all I see are guys who dress like that on the television acting the way they do, it makes me think - maybe I have to act like that. But I don't want to - I don't want to change my personality (nor am I asking them to change theirs). I shouldn't let television and movies influence me the way they have.
Bodycon wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:03 pm The great conundrum is that most MIS just want to wear them without any attention, but conversely, without attention, the word is not spread and others are not encouraged. My biggest fear is that those who are outlandish (set your own criteria) are just seen as freaks and dismissed while tarring the more modest MIS with the same brush.
Yes - though I don't want to take their freedom of expression away, and a part of me thinks sometimes, "No, I don't like your ridiculous sequined blazer, but I'll let you wear what you want if I can wear what I want. And nice shirt." :P
Bodycon wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:03 pm Feminine and femininity exist but are not always overtly on show and to be fair has little to do with clothing. Body Language - Mannerisms and what is conveyed with the eyes play a bigger part than haircuts and jeans.
Agreed!
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