Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

[Brad]

I started a thread in 2015 where I put forth an idea that the focus on trans people may have an unintended effect of helping us achieve societal acceptance. You can see the thread here viewtopic.php?f=65&t=17783 This was a time when there was a lot of attention paid to the trans movement by the media. Bruce Jenner transitioned to Caitlyn Jenner and a popular show, Orange is the New Black had an openly trans actor named Laverne Cox.

At the time I wrote:
It seems that the focus as of late on transgendered individuals, particularly Laverne Cox and Caitlyn Jenner, has helped our cause by allowing mainstream society to expect to see, and be more accepting of, unconventional men. Of course most skirt wearing men are not transgendered, but this most recent phenomenon may help increase our acceptance.

Many who replied disagreed with me and felt that we don't want to be associated with the trans movement. Although we are not anti-trans, it is not who we are.

I want to know if anyone thinks the landscape has changed in 6 years. I certainly do. I feel it has not been a monumental societal shift, but it has brought more acceptability to men wearing skirts.

I also want to know if anyone thinks the possible association with the trans movement is still a negative thing for us. I still feel, as I did in 2015, that it is a positive for us.

[Ralph]

I do think the landscape has changed, and not in a good way. Now that society are more aware of trans-people, I have seen a growing tendency both in and outside the trans community to assume that we are just in deep denial of what they consider "obvious" transgender behaviour. Those who support LGBTQ+ issues demand we stop denying our true nature, and those on the other side of the fence demand that we "man up" and quit acting trans. We just can't win!

[Coder]

Honestly, though, I would rather have someone argue with me over my gender than the previous CD/TV stereotype. Don't get me wrong - I'd much prefer people thinking "coder will be coder"... but when given a choice of a lesser of two "evils", I'll take "person must be trans" over the other stereotypes.

Also... I have yet to run into someone liberal who believes in trans stuff and accuses me of being closeted trans. I haven't been to too many places skirted amongst friends, but the times I have no one said anything (which bugged me to no end, I mean, I know they are curious). I stay away from online spaces that focus on those issues because that's how they see the world - and oddly they don't always accommodate other modes of existing.

[Midas]

I have only just started going out in public wearing a skirt and haven’t had any reaction from anybody at all - nobody is any different. The first few times out I wore a dark coloured, relatively short skirt. Last time I wore a longer, patterned skirt with a pink fitted top. I expected to feel more self conscious but nothing was different.

I believe this is in part due to the trans effect. People are more used to seeing someone who presents as out of the ordinary and attitudes are less judgmental than might have been the case a few years ago.

[new2skirts]

I think most people are just happy to be out and about between lockdowns than agonize over what people are wearing. There will be double takes, but then people just get on with their lives. As long as you don't wear anything too outrageous, no one will give you the time of day. I think Trans has a part to do with this, and although people will lump us into this box it's just a way some can figure our sartorial choices out.

[Bodycon]

I think the acceptance of trans (etc) people is due to a shift in social and moral attitudes generally where acceptance of others has grown. The LGBT (etc) people have pushed this change further than it would have been by being more open and vocal about themselves and demanding that acceptance.

Other accepted changes include dying of hair all sorts of colours, piercings and tattoos all of which have exploded in popularity over a few years.

"Men in skirts" is a minority movement held back by not having an associated identifier group and is more of a nuanced personal choice. Demands cannot be made, or indeed given in to, as they simply don't exist (for the most part). We already have civil rights to wear what we like and the only thing holding most people back from doing so is what others may think of them; which is a way of saying that we are holding ourselves back, not others.

Yes, society is more open, and yes, trans groups have pushed that change, but no, it has not made any real difference to (cis male, heterosexual) skirt wearing men, as in the eyes of society, they don't really exist.

[Sinned]

In my quiet little backwater I have seen little of the trans effect, This is a city with two Universities with both being not too far from the city centre. So sometimes rather left of centre outerwear is seen. But for all the odd clothing I don't see dresses or skirts on the horizon for men. I do think that this has more of an effect on the general populace than any trans issues. So a man could walk around in a dress or a skirt ( I have worn a skirt in the town centre ) and go about their transactions without any comment. Maybe we just don't have a significant trans populace or that populace doesn't cause any ripples in the local press. So have things changed in the past six years? Maybe in other areas or parts of the country but no, I don't see any evidence. My wife doesn't see other men around here wearing skirts so she feels justified in her opinion of my skirt wearing as being odd and her opposition is reinforced.

[skirted84]

Things haven't really "changed" from 2015, it just never was a whole new acceptance, of MIS or transgenderism for that matter and this utopian view has gradually worn off. In saying that a lot of anti-trans feminists have publicly stated men can dress however the hell they want as long as they keep out womens safe spaces, just a shame it took a perceived threat to their gendered protections to acknowledge this fact clearly.

Some of the unsavoury characters of the trans movement do MIS no favours, though in reality it spans the entire gamnet of person and character profiles.

[Jim]

"Men in skirts" is a minority movement held back by not having an associated identifier group and is more of a nuanced personal choice.

Some lists of gender identifier groups include "gender nonconforming". I think that is one that we should all be able to accept as skirts on men do not conform to popular gender norms.

[Faldaguy]

by Jim » Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:39 pm

Bodycon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:18 pm
"Men in skirts" is a minority movement held back by not having an associated identifier group and is more of a nuanced personal choice.

Some lists of gender identifier groups include "gender nonconforming". I think that is one that we should all be able to accept as skirts on men do not conform to popular gender norms.

Hi Jim -- true in some parts of the world. Fortunately most countries don't have a page of 50 gender and pronoun identifiers! Frankly I dislike labels, sometimes they are useful shortcuts, but most labels come with severe limitations and tend to build boxes that seldom fit even the few within the box.

I don't particularly want a label, accurate or not -- I'm just a bloke in a skirt; no different from any other person in whatever garment they may be wearing at that time -- or none in your case! It just does not matter.

I do think all of the folks who have stepped up and out to acknowledge they aren't running full time with the crowd, have helped all of us to be more aware, and usually more accepting of differences when those differences do not tread upon others.

[Faldaguy]

Here is a member's comment from thefashionspot that seems fitting to a couple of the current threads:

"Oddly enough, I'm starting to see more and more guys, on the younger side definitely, like, in the late-teens, early 20s, wear skirts, but they don't look fashion-forward or . It seems like they're wearing skirts more in a disrupt-the-patriarchy/screw-your-gender-roles kind of way, which is totally cool, and a modern way of approaching clothes. Very cool, IMO. "
#676eugenius, Mar 13, 2019

[rivegauche]

I think the current trans campaigns risk a backlash. As someone who uses fitting rooms in shops a lot (usually shops aimed at women but also shops like Next and John Lewis that direct me to fitting rooms on the same floor as the dresses I am carrying) there really is not a problem at the moment. The Daily Mail type outrage risks a counter-campaign from the type of people who read the Daily Mail and some shops might react by being less accommodating for men - but I doubt it. I am in a minority on this site because I also go out presenting as a woman and very occasionally have to use a toilet. I either ask permission (in a hotel or restaurant) or I have a woman with me so that I am less likely to be perceived as a threat. It is not currently illegal for someone to use a toilet that does not correspond to your birth gender. I do not identify as a woman and society seems to lack a box for this. I fear that the backlash might result in a ban on anyone using a toilet other than the one corresponding to the gender they are living in full time. In respect of York, I used to go there a lot when presenting as a woman, staying in hotel that is now flats, and everyone was extremely nice to me. I stopped going when the hotel closed. The only time I have had comments called out to me in the street over what I was wearing was in York - but I was in a kilt. So I think that the woke brigade are generally helping us by closing down the idiots and getting shops to be more inclusive but I also think the current aggressive nature of the trans campaigns runs the risk of creating a backlash that could set everything back. It also does not help when anyone who makes even a mild remark about the definition of a woman is then subjected to a torrent of abuse and hatred.

[pelmut]

Speaking as someone who has had the realisation that they are trans during that period, I have noticed two opposite effects: in general, ordinary people have become more tolerant of trans and other variations but at the same time an anti-trans minority has promoted an ignorant and vicious anti-trans campaign in the U.K. media.  The 'pro-trans' campaigners who are shown on the news are totally unrepresentative of most trans people, who just want to be left to get on with their lives in peace.  I can understand a few young campaigners are genuinely enraged at some of the things they have to deal with, but their ways of protesting are a gift to the media who keep trying to portray us as some kind of threat to women.

Men in skirts who are incorrectly assumed to be trans will naturally be upset, but there is nothing especially bad about being trans; it would be just as upsetting if you were assumed to be a drag artist -- or worse if they thought you were a lunatic or a pædophile.

[crfriend]

Men in skirts who are incorrectly assumed to be trans will naturally be upset, but there is nothing especially bad about being trans; it would be just as upsetting if you were assumed to be a drag artist -- or worse if they thought you were a lunatic or a pædophile.

It's not the misclassification as being trans, it's about all the other mistaken baggage that comes with that classification.

What's wrong with treating people like people?

[Ralph]

What's wrong with treating people like people?

Hahahahahahaha! If only the world were that sensible. The concepts of gender roles, stereotypes, and even the wider scope of "social contract" would disappear overnight.

I just got notified today that a reply I wrote on Quora a while back is getting shared. It was in regards to the concept of "nonbinary" gender. I went on at length about how labels matter because when we attach a label like "male" or "female" or "trans" to ourselves, we immediately get weighed down by society's expectations of what behaviour and presentation that label carries. Nonbinary says "sod that, I refuse to meet your expectations so I won't give you a label you can use to pigeonhole me."