Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
Brad
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:54 pm
Location: Rockland County, New York, USA

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by Brad »

Carl said
What's wrong with treating people like people?
If only life could be that uncomplicated.

Some people who check a male or female box may have qualities of the other gender. Gender is more like a spectrum than it is a list of choices. And how we feel about our gender can change at any given time.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14432
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by crfriend »

Ralph wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:02 pmNonbinary says "sod that, I refuse to meet your expectations so I won't give you a label you can use to pigeonhole me."
It could also be said that it indicates "a person so confused about who or what he/she is that the individual is incapable of properly charting a rational course in society".

"Binary", in logic, is an absolute, and absolutes (other than alive or dead) are a bit of a rarity in the organic world. Thus I'd term the entire notion of "the binary" fallacious and it should not be used. In reality, all of us are complex blends of assorted characteristics, and those can change over time, some more prevalent at one end than the other -- and that's what's become known in the PC world as the "binary". Sorry revisionists, "binary" is not a useful term here. It's merely divisive -- needlessly.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by pelmut »

crfriend wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:00 pm
Ralph wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:02 pmNonbinary says "sod that, I refuse to meet your expectations so I won't give you a label you can use to pigeonhole me."
It could also be said that it indicates "a person so confused about who or what he/she is that the individual is incapable of properly charting a rational course in society".
No, it is society that is confused because it clings to over-simplified 'truths' that are just plain wrong.  When confronted with the real truth, some people become confused and react badly. Fortunately more and more people nowadays are looking at the facts and saying "Oh yes, I can see we got that wrong -- it's obvious really, isn't it".
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14432
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by crfriend »

pelmut wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:56 pmNo, it is society that is confused because it clings to over-simplified 'truths' that are just plain wrong.
That's what I was driving at. Society has it wrong, perhaps because of 30 or 40 years of brainwashing about what it means to be a man or a woman, or what masculine and feminine actually represent. We have neo-conservatism to thank for a lot of that as well as the radical feminist movement. It's a ruddy mess.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by pelmut »

Getting back to the title of the thread:  I don't think there is such a thing as a "trans movement", that is something invented by the media to encourage conflict.  There has been a huge increase in the number of individuals coming out as trans, but they were trans all along and have only recently felt able to say so -- and they are acting as individuals, not as a collective movement.  The increased media interest has caused increased awareness of trans people and that is one thing that has had an effect on the way men in skirts are viewed.

The other thing is the deliberate misinformation spread by the haters and siezed on by the media: that transwomen are mentally ill, perverts and a danger to 'real' women.  This means that some people immediately assume a man in a skirt is likely to be transgender  ...and they then go on to assume he is a dangerous scheming pervert.  It's not transpeople who have brought this about, it is the hate groups and their allies in the media.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
User avatar
Pdxfashionpioneer
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Note to moderators: This is the unproofread version of the posting below. Please delete this one as it is duplicative. Thank you.
some people immediately assume a man in a skirt is likely to be transgender ...and they then go on to assume he is a dangerous scheming pervert


And thankfully such people are in a distinct minority.

To answer Brad's question directly. I don't know how much society has changed over the last 6 years. I do know there has been a definite sea-change from 15 years ago. Then, I was scorned and ridiculed by crossdressers who knew me well for wearing a skirted suit as a man; now I'm accepted and well-received by virtually everyone I come into contact with.

I also know that the LGBTQIA+ equal rights movement has made all the difference by advocating for all of us who do not fit the Gender Binary and by putting into state and local laws protections for gender expression. That is, the right of men to publicly wear dresses and skirts in public, to work and in all other areas of daily life. In 20-some US states the LGBTQ advocates have secured the explicit legal rights so many of you yearn for. And they're now working for all of that on the national level with the Equality Act.

I also agree with Jim, that we're gender nonconforming, which is a pretty open-ended label. Because it's something of a miscellaneous/ catch-all/ not easily classified category, it simply means that in one or more ways, we don't fit the standard stereotype image of a male. Our distinction is that we like to wear skirts and dresses without any intention of presenting ourselves as women. At least most of us most of the time that we're in skirts or dresses. Myself included.
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
User avatar
Pdxfashionpioneer
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

some people immediately assume a man in a skirt is likely to be transgender ...and they then go on to assume he is a dangerous scheming pervert


And thankfully such people are in a distinct minority.

To answer Brad's question directly: I don't know how much society has changed over the last 6 years. I do know there has been a definite sea-change from 15 years ago. Then, I was scorned and ridiculed by crossdressers who knew me well for wearing a skirted suit as a man; now I'm accepted and well-received by virtually everyone I come into contact with.

I also know that the LGBTQIA+ equal rights movement has made all the difference by advocating for all of us who do not fit the Gender Binary and by putting into state and local laws protections for gender expression. That is, among other things, the right of men to publicly wear dresses and skirts in public, to work and in all other areas of daily life. In 20-some US states the LGBTQ advocates have secured the explicit legal rights so many of you yearn for. And they're now working for all of that on the national level with the Equality Act.

I also agree with Jim, that we're "gender nonconforming," which is a pretty open-ended label. Because it's something of a miscellaneous/ catch-all/ not easily classified category, it simply means that in one or more ways, we don't fit the standard stereotype image of a male. Our distinction is that we like to wear skirts and dresses without any intention of presenting ourselves as women. At least most of us most of the time that we're in skirts or dresses. Myself included.

While there has been some backlash against the transgendered, all that they're asking for is what most Americans take for granted: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Fundamentally, what driving the haters is that they're looking for simplicity and certainty in a complicated, uncertain world. They've grasped the notion that the unexamined life isn't worth living.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
Brad
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:54 pm
Location: Rockland County, New York, USA

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by Brad »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:31 am In 20-some US states the LGBTQ advocates have secured the explicit legal rights so many of you yearn for. And they're now working for all of that on the national level with the Equality Act.

This is an important point and I thank PDX for mentioning it. In most states (thankfully not NY where I live), I could lose a job or be evicted just because my employer / landlord doesn't like me wearing a skirt. I am a cisgendered and straight male but I am grateful to the LGBTQIA+ community for their efforts that have helped people like me.
Midas
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:52 pm

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by Midas »

I always thought the USA was the land of the free. I hope you (as a nation) get the legislation through.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14432
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by crfriend »

Midas wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:39 pmI always thought the USA was the land of the free.
Only in propaganda.
I hope you (as a nation) get the legislation through.
We shall see how it fares in a neo-conservative congress. Realists are not hopeful.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
TheSkirtedMan
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:14 pm
Location: N. Yorkshire England
Contact:

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by TheSkirtedMan »

I do not think the recent publicity on transgender has made it worse for men in skirts like ourselves. Better, perhaps yes, but I have encountered nothing to say specifically either worse or better due to the transgender discussions. I therefore base my findings on actual real life experience.

As a member of this forum has pointed out on this thread, in fact discussed elsewhere on this forum, society is obsessed with labels, labels to the finest of points. I do not agree with many labels, they over complicate and create unnecessary labels elsewhere eg clothing, even this forum uses the label men in skirts, but then due to society we have to. These labels are also defined by others perceptions or expectations and can be contradictory.

The recent high level of publicity on transgender has no doubt brought the multiple gender differences to the attention of many new to the subject and some will develop their own conclusions on either side of the fence. Society does this in all aspects of life, 24/7.

The topic of transgender has been very much highlighted for a few years now and for me, a man in a skirt, label, who practises skirt wearing and openly invades the female wardrobe where ever and when ever practical to do so, not based upon others expectations, has not detected any increase in comment or question with regards gender ID. I am treated as a man, spoken to as a man and that is because I do not hide the biological fact that I am a man and OK as such. The fact that I invade the female wardrobe openly as a man and carry out my life as though I think it is right certainly helps. Yes I get momentary looks by some. Always have, no noticeable increase recently. The vast majority interact with me as always, blind to what I have on, and I get many compliments as well, in fact compliments increase on a particular clothing style.

I certainly have not noticed any negative or positive increase towards me due to transgender discussions. No one interacts with me on that basis. I have said before that 99% of my life is undertaken with the society label of women's clothes be it Doctors, Dentist, Hospital patient, shopping, theatre, days out, hotel stays etc. My role as Room Steward at a historic hall is 100% skirted and that now includes slide shows away from the hall and they are not forewarned.

I therefore do not think the increase in transgender discussions has had any increase in a negative effect upon men in skirts as men in skirts. I firmly believe that negativity is brought on upon others by their own actions, expectations and demands. In the 10 years since I went public I find a huge swing of public sentiment that are OK with men in skirts compared to 10 years ago but then I accept there are always sections of society that do not, it is part of human behaviour. It may also be due to the wider public discussion on the variety of gender identity and thereby many more just accept you as you, again, provided no harm to others.

I do not live in a city or town, but very rural. We have had a change in gamekeeper in our area, including under keeper and they and I have been absolutely fine from the word go, with no negative body language from either. Always wave, often stop and have a chat. No discussion on am I transgender.

The Equality Act 2010 in the UK certainly allows for individuals to be individuals and one cannot be discriminated against openly but a group of people can always "encourage" another out subtly! There will always be those who do not like or agree with you, then thankfully there is not the time where you have to ensure them, just move on to those who do and can.
Be yourself because an original is worth more than a copy.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6994
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Warm Beach, Washington
Contact:

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by moonshadow »

I can't really gauge how much transgender awareness has helped the "male skirt wearing group", but I suspect one factor that has greatly lifted all boats is the overall increase in communication, stories, knowledge, etc thanks to the internet and social media.

40 years ago if you were fired or discriminated against for being a skirt wearing guy, a transgender woman, or homosexual, you could easily be forgotten about. These days while that discrimination still happens, the subject person being discriminated against has more access to networking resources, as well as a means to get their stories heard. It's much easier to find community now than ever before, and along with that, it's much easier to find help.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
Midas
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:52 pm

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by Midas »

TheSkirtedMan wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:01 pm

As a member of this forum has pointed out on this thread, in fact discussed elsewhere on this forum, society is obsessed with labels, labels to the finest of points. I do not agree with many labels, they over complicate and create unnecessary labels elsewhere eg clothing, even this forum uses the label men in skirts, but then due to society we have to. These labels are also defined by others perceptions or expectations and can be contradictory.

I wouldn’t say that calling us men in skirts is a label as such, but rather a factual description of our preferences. No doubt other people will label us as they see fit, whether they express that or not. I think the trans situation is likely to make some more reluctant to express a negative view, whatever they may think.

My experience of wearing skirts in public is limited to the past few weeks but I have perceived no negativity and little or no interest. As it is winter I have only been out and about while wearing a coat and I haven’t yet been out wearing a dress. It will be interesting to find out if there is any difference when we get to the warmer months and I venture out without a coat or jacket or in a dress. I would expect some to wonder if I am self identifying as a woman, but I doubt anyone will ever ask.
User avatar
TheSkirtedMan
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:14 pm
Location: N. Yorkshire England
Contact:

Re: Revisiting the effect of the trans movement on us

Post by TheSkirtedMan »

Midas wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:42 pm [I would expect some to wonder if I am self identifying as a woman, but I doubt anyone will ever ask.
I have been asked a few times and clearly a polite, genuine curiosity as to why I wear a skirt. They always give responses of positive acknowledgement like "I hadn't thought of it like that" or "of course as a woman I have that choice". My initial reply is "I'm just a man embracing his freedom of choice, expression and individuality as everyone else expects these days". Only one took a direct challenge to that reply stating I had not given her an answer so mine was very direct "I suggest you look in the nearest mirror and ask yourself why am I a sexist bigot" to which she flounced off with another member of the public saying to me, "well said young man". Her clothing, including hair style, was very manly. Some out in society do have the confidence to ask and directly. The question I enjoy is "excuse me, is your outfit a religion". It always gives me the opportunity to put them on the backfoot with the reply "why, what makes you say that" and then watch them as they usually struggle with a response before they make an apology and I just give my standard reply.

Many I am sure want to ask but don't, but those that do I do find it is a genuine curiosity because at the end of the day, men who wear skirts in public are quite rare. Only had two direct rebukes and I came away from those on the upper hand in the 10 years of being out in public and the vast majority of that is skirted. The odd enquiry, even the two direct rebukes always question the skirt, nothing else even though only my footwear is clearly society male labelled.
Be yourself because an original is worth more than a copy.
Post Reply