Another double standard

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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Coder
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Another double standard

Post by Coder »

We all know about this, but I've never seen it so blatantly on a retailers website. I was being advertised to on Instagram, and clicked through to this retailer:

https://www.uniqlo.com

Go to the "Women's > Tops" category. At the top of the page you'll see some jump links:

T-Shirts
Sweatshirts and Hoodies
Sweaters and Cardigans
Shirts and Blouses
UT: Graphic Tees
From The Men's Section

Yep - "From The Men's Section"

I'm sure other companies do this, but if you click through to the men's side of things, they don't offer a reciprocal link. Not surprised, mind you.
new2skirts
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Re: Another double standard

Post by new2skirts »

It's to do with ingrained gender roles... in their eyes, why would any man want to dress as a woman? Hence any skirted outfit that catwalk designers make for men, are teamed with pants or trousers to reassure people it's a "masculine" look :roll:

Hopefully Lewis Hamilton will realise his Burberry outfit looks ridiculous with the pants worn as well :mrgreen: thick tights and chunky boots would look better :wink:
Formerly Kilty / Joe Public etc...
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Bodycon
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Re: Another double standard

Post by Bodycon »

Is this not just a case of the retailer realising that women buy "men's" clothes and maximising their sales by providing a link?

If enough guys bought from the women's section, they would provide a link, but they don't, so they won't....
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howardfh
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Re: Another double standard

Post by howardfh »

Bodycon wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:21 pm
Is this not just a case of the retailer realising that women buy "men's" clothes and maximising their sales by providing a link?

If enough guys bought from the women's section, they would provide a link, but they don't, so they won't....
With tights they have worked that out years ago. Can't remember which on-line reatailer it was, but one of their bullet points was "we note a large number of men are buying tights,either on behalf of someone else, as a present for someone else (a man...??) or indeed for themselves, maybe for warmth in winter or simply because they love the feel".

They still divided tights into "mens" - ie. most with a fly; and "womens", despite most men I presume buying "women's"

It makes sense to diffrentiate between those with a fly and those without, but surely otherwise they are simply tights/stockings/hosery with no gender attached?
Coder
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Re: Another double standard

Post by Coder »

Bodycon wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:21 pm
Is this not just a case of the retailer realising that women buy "men's" clothes and maximising their sales by providing a link?

If enough guys bought from the women's section, they would provide a link, but they don't, so they won't....
Maybe? I’d hazard a guess a good % do, but because of stigmas attached to men wearing “women’s clothes” that they don’t want to rock that boat and cater to them. Honestly, I’m not even talking about skirts - just start with shirts. Problem is, with structured/non-stretch shirts, they tend to be tailored for smaller shoulders, which throws off sizing, and they might get a lot of returns.
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Re: Another double standard

Post by STEVIE »

Coder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:35 pm
I’d hazard a guess a good % do, but because of stigmas attached to men wearing “women’s clothes” that they don’t want to rock that boat and cater to them.
Hi Coder
The retailer isn't responsible for societal attitude, they just have to work with it.
Actually, "catering" is exactly what they do and how they earn a crust.
Rocking the boat can be less than conducive to that end.
Bodycon wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:21 pm
If enough guys bought from the women's section, they would provide a link, but they don't, so they won't....
I agree with this one hundred percent.
I'd go further by saying that if more men bought openly from across the aisle we'd see a shift.
I've said before, when money talks traders listen.
Steve.
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Re: Another double standard

Post by Dust »

howardfh wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:53 pm
Bodycon wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:21 pm
Is this not just a case of the retailer realising that women buy "men's" clothes and maximising their sales by providing a link?

If enough guys bought from the women's section, they would provide a link, but they don't, so they won't....
With tights they have worked that out years ago. Can't remember which on-line reatailer it was, but one of their bullet points was "we note a large number of men are buying tights,either on behalf of someone else, as a present for someone else (a man...??) or indeed for themselves, maybe for warmth in winter or simply because they love the feel".

They still divided tights into "mens" - ie. most with a fly; and "womens", despite most men I presume buying "women's"

It makes sense to diffrentiate between those with a fly and those without, but surely otherwise they are simply tights/stockings/hosery with no gender attached?
Honestly, this is the reverse of how a lot of retailers do t-shirts. Men's are shapeless unisex, and women's are fitted to women's curves. Some places have started calling the "men's" shirts unisex, but a lot haven't.

Meanwhile, I've seen hosery companies market unisex or not specify, and even slip some male models into the pictures. The larger retailers, not some much, but if that's all they sell, they sometimes conspicuously don't label their products as "women's."
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denimini
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Re: Another double standard

Post by denimini »

STEVIE wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:04 am
I agree with this one hundred percent.
I'd go further by saying that if more men bought openly from across the aisle we'd see a shift.
I've said before, when money talks traders listen.
Steve.
Sums it up pretty well.
At least it is not like we can't cross the aisle, just that we are not invited to as yet because there is no perceived need. Most power tool ads are directed to men, although there would be some women buying and using them which is more than crossing an aisle, probably involves crossing a road.

We are not too badly done by, I think.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
Coder
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Re: Another double standard

Post by Coder »

So the big question I ask is: what do retailers know? What are their stats? For instance, when I place an order on ModCloth, do they know I'm buying for myself, or does their system assume Male = buying as gift?
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crfriend
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Re: Another double standard

Post by crfriend »

To Coder's question, I rather suspect the assumption would be down to individual retailers, whether a personal connection is involved, and whether the retailer caters to (or is even aware) of guys who wear skirts/"other stuff" conventionally deemed as "womens wear". The big chains -- especially if one is ordering on-line or through the mail -- are almost certainly unaware of it and likely aren't even tracking it; smaller places -- where the customer and retailer know one another are almost certainly aware of it; and places that cater to that crowd are absolutely aware of it (else they'd not be catering).
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Re: Another double standard

Post by STEVIE »

Coder wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:31 pm
So the big question I ask is: what do retailers know?
Hi Coder
I had my first retail expedition in ages on Thursday. There were lots of people around and I visited all sides in a variety of clothes shops.
I was rather struck by the number of men accompanied by their womenfolk and being instructed what they should or should not wear.
What is more, most of the male shoppers appeared to have a female chaperone too. Do not think that this goes unobserved by the retailer either.
Me wanting to spend even £50 to £100 on a dress for myself is of no significance sales wise so I know I won't get VIP treatment. The larger chains just do not need to care as Carl rightly says. They just want the money the end user isn't their concern. That said, I did receive perfectly good customer service.
Until men show the retailers that we are buying for ourselves and on our own terms this state of affairs is not likely to change.
The female of the species worked this out a long time ago and the retailers do exploit it to their own advantage.
Sorry man but there it is, we are still very small fry in retail terms.
Harsh reality but it isn't a double standard.
Steve.
Coder
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Re: Another double standard

Post by Coder »

STEVIE wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:36 pm
I had my first retail expedition in ages on Thursday. There were lots of people around and I visited all sides in a variety of clothes shops.
I was rather struck by the number of men accompanied by their womenfolk and being instructed what they should or should not wear.
What is more, most of the male shoppers appeared to have a female chaperone too. Do not think that this goes unobserved by the retailer either.
Actually, I too was - uncharacteristically - at two different retail outlets last week.

Lands' End - 3/4 of the store was women's. 1/8 mens, 1/8 children's.

L. L. Bean - the store was split evenly between the two sexes.

I don't know what's the norm - but if memory serves me correctly Lands' End is the typical setup, with more variety and space dedicated to women. Am I complaining? Not sure. I do find it slightly - slightly - insulting that we men have to be told what to wear. I get that not all men care at the same level women do, and for those men - it's up to them whether they want to be shopped for - but I'd like to have a little autonomy over my appearance, thank you very much :D
STEVIE wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:36 pm
Me wanting to spend even £50 to £100 on a dress for myself is of no significance sales wise so I know I won't get VIP treatment. The larger chains just do not need to care as Carl rightly says. They just want the money the end user isn't their concern. That said, I did receive perfectly good customer service.
Until men show the retailers that we are buying for ourselves and on our own terms this state of affairs is not likely to change.
The female of the species worked this out a long time ago and the retailers do exploit it to their own advantage.
Sorry man but there it is, we are still very small fry in retail terms.
Harsh reality but it isn't a double standard.
Steve.
Yeah, I can't argue with the fact that we've done this to ourselves, but I'm kinda tired of having to "follow" what our predecessors set up for us.
STEVIE
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Re: Another double standard

Post by STEVIE »

Coder wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:26 pm
Yeah, I can't argue with the fact that we've done this to ourselves, but I'm kinda tired of having to "follow" what our predecessors set up for us.
Coder
The more that we break from that mould then the sooner those changes may happen.
One point, my retail safari rig was a red/grey/black combi, no stealth, no camouflage.
I was in every clothes retailer in the Edinburgh St James' Centre and on Princes' Street.
There was no mistaking me for anything other than a guy in a skirt on the hunt for a dress.
If the chats I had with some sales assistants got repeated up the line then perhaps the day was wet but not a total washout.
Who knows but I had some fun in the process and for me, quite enough. I even achieved a higher "step count" than I have in ages too.
Steve.
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