a blog on style

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.

a blog on style

Postby Gusto10 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:26 am

Not knowing whether this blog has been brought to attention before, a brief history on "out of the box thinking" by men in respect of style

http://stylefactsanddesires.blogspot.co ... rsion.html
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Re: a blog on style

Postby weeladdie18 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:45 pm

Gusto10 wrote:Not knowing whether this blog has been brought to attention before, a brief history on "out of the box thinking" by men in respect of style

http://stylefactsanddesires.blogspot.co ... rsion.html


It is worth noting that the blog makes reference to a Male Hackney Council Employee who lost his case against the council who refused to allow
him to wear a skirt to work in 1995.......that was over twenty years ago.....Has the world of Government Employees changed in twenty years ??????

Perhaps the World has changed in so far as there are more females performing traditionally male professional tasks................
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Re: a blog on style

Postby STEVIE » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:08 am

weeladdie18 wrote:t is worth noting that the blog makes reference to a Male Hackney Council Employee who lost his case against the council who refused to allow him to wear a skirt to work in 1995.......that was over twenty years ago.....Has the world of Government Employees changed in twenty years ??????Perhaps the World has changed in so far as there are more females performing traditionally male professional tasks................


"In 1995 a man lost his case against Hackney Council in London, which had banned him from wearing a skirt to work; this challenge to the official 'norm' had proved too disquieting. In order to maintain the status quo, the dress codes assigned to the masculine must not be subverted in a manner that cuts through the discipline and lack of emotion implicit in traditional styles, in particular at work. it is notable that this is also the last place in which women are often made to wear skirts, a throwback to older ordering systems. Employers are reluctant to admit that fundamental changes in gender definition and women's status have taken place."

We have to differentiate between employment by a Local Authority and the Government in the UK. The conditions and expectations can vary enormously.
In addition, there is no inherent legal right for a male to wear a skirt at work. The employer's dress codes can be applied along "gender" lines and not be discriminatory. The broad test is of reasonableness and acceptability. For instance, in a sales role, the skirt may be viewed as contrary to the aims of the role and possibly damaging to the business aims. There is separate legislation in place which protects the rights of the transgendered but I will leave that aside.
There is only one other example that I am currently aware of which is relevant. In the Scottish arm of the British Civil Service there is an established precedent for a male to wear a skirt at work. However, this has not been tested in a court of law or industrial tribunal to the best of my knowledge.
It is also worth noting that women too have lost jobs for transgressing dress codes. I certainly knew of 2 instances around a similar time as the article. A Scottish Local Authority fired a female for appearing at work braless. The second was a private company which dismissed a girl because her underwear was "too visible" through a light summer dress.
Personally, in terms of style, I make mine up as I go along. It just happens to include skirts but I still regard myself as a valid male.
Others can judge the look but that is another question.
Sum up, yes, things have changed. Just not as much as we would like or other folks think they have.
Steve.
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Re: a blog on style

Postby moonshadow » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:16 pm

STEVIE wrote:The employer's dress codes can be applied along "gender" lines and not be discriminatory. The broad test is of reasonableness and acceptability. For instance, in a sales role, the skirt may be viewed as contrary to the aims of the role and possibly damaging to the business aims. There is separate legislation in place which protects the rights of the transgendered but I will leave that aside.


That's the rub right there, yes, in most places dress codes can determine what clothing is worn by what sex, but in 99% of cases women can still wear suits and "pants" to the office. A male (person with a penis) must claim to be transgender for the same privilege.

I understand a businesses need to project a certain image, I just wish society were more open minded when it comes to these things.

I certainly knew of 2 instances around a similar time as the article. A Scottish Local Authority fired a female for appearing at work braless. The second was a private company which dismissed a girl because her underwear was "too visible" through a light summer dress.


...and it sounds like neither case involved the simple wearing of pants.

I not saying men should wear sissy outfits or elaborate prom dresses to the office, but I am saying that "what's good for the goose should be good for the gander".

I'm not an office worker, and though his styles don't reflect my personal preferences, Mark as in Mark's office looks seem suitable for men. Me personally, I'd probably wear a midi with flats, but then even that can be acceptable for women in the work place.
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Re: a blog on style

Postby weeladdie18 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:26 pm

We must remember that in the U K at present English employment rules are overruled by E.U. Equal sexual employment Rules under E.U. Law
Anyone who is still working would do well to check up on these rights under their employment contract........ with their English Trade Union........
However these rules may be different in Scotland..................weeladdie
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Re: a blog on style

Postby STEVIE » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:08 pm

At the risk of repetition, there is no inherent legal right in the United Kingdom for a guy to wear a skirt at work as a male!
Moon, you are correct regarding Mark's outfits. They could be regarded as "acceptable" if them employer's dress code allowed.
Women, however, will still have a damn sight more leeway within an identical code.
That is simply the harsh reality but some freedom is still preferable to none and something that would have been unthinkable until very recently.
Wee Laddie, if and when the European Union rules are revoked it is likely that any freedoms which currently exist will only be eroded further.
It is equally unlikely that the Trade Unions will be in any position to do anything to make a substantial improvement.
That also is a simple reality for the times we live in.
Steve
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Re: a blog on style

Postby moonshadow » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:16 pm

STEVIE wrote:That is simply the harsh reality but some freedom is still preferable to none and something that would have been unthinkable until very recently.


That's true, and we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that progress is being made. Granted, some of it in light of trans issues, but on the other hand, it is that group (the trans group) that catches the most hell from the world.

But the truth is, 30 years ago I doubt most of us could even walk down the street in a skirt and not get arrested. Now nobody really cares and most employers don't either, at the very least they might ask you to keep it out if the work place. A practice I still adhere to, though sometimes I do visit customer establishments with a skirt on during my off time.... normally only customers that I have judged to be "cool".

One in particular, who is a "mom and pop" by the way called in a call today. I've been there in a skirt before and the first thing they said today was "I'm glad they sent you this time". Nice! Always good to hear that, especially as I work to digest the old bones of my past social struggles.

The bottom line:

Friends, this is how we progress... just get out there and be yourself. Don't be an obnoxious ass about it, but just be yourself... the world will eventually catch up.... it always does! :)
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Re: a blog on style

Postby STEVIE » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:28 am

moonshadow wrote:Friends, this is how we progress... just get out there and be yourself. Don't be an obnoxious ass about it, but just be yourself... the world will eventually catch up.... it always does!


AMEN!
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Re: a blog on style

Postby weeladdie18 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:02 am

Stevie....You have stated.....At the risk of repetition.......Please note that the statements in your two posts do not concur.....

It is perhaps not entirely satisfactory to make a statement regarding terms and conditions of employment under a contract in
either Scotland or England without submitting a reliable reference.....

Perhaps this depends upon the choice of the noun one chooses to use in ones statement.
The wording used in a Trade Union Statement is correctly researched by the originator of the statement.

Skirt Café is an international authority on the experiences of Men in Skirts....
Skirt Cafe is not an authority on legal contracts of employment of the Male Gender in each of the countries of the World.....weeladdie
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Re: a blog on style

Postby weeladdie18 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:38 am

Well said Moon....One of the clothing issues which we have now relaxed is the issue of Wartime Female R.A.F. ferry pilots .......

These ladies flew aircraft to operational airfields whilst wearing trousers........When they went into the mess they had to
wear their skirts as part of their uniform as W R A F s

These days the Wrens in the Navy wear either their uniform skirts or trousers according to their working requirements either on or off the Base.
.....
When the Wrens visit the local supermarket the female staff are either wearing black uniform skirts or trousers......

My opinion is that Men in Skirts should act in a responsible manner and dress as they see fit ........
.....when they are not working under the terms and conditions of their employment...................weeladdie
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Re: a blog on style

Postby STEVIE » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:34 am

Hi Wee Laddie

I trust that the following references are enough to satisfy you. Please note that there are no devolved powers to the Scottish Parliament regarding employment law.
All contracts of employment in the United Kingdom are equally subject to these rules.
The "Skirt Café" is not an authority on anything. It simply brings together some people with coincidental ideas and opinions, no more and certainly no less.

Employment Acts 2019
What is Employment Law?
Contracts of Employment
Data Protection
Disabilities
Discrimination
Disciplinary Procedures
Dismissals and Redundancies
Employment Tribunals
Equality Act
Health and Safety
Industrial Action
Maternity and Parental Rights
Mental Health Act 1983
Recruitment
Transfer of Undertakings (TUPE)
Wages and Salary
Working Time Regulations
Workplace Pensions
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Re: a blog on style

Postby moonshadow » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:22 pm

STEVIE wrote:Wee Laddie, if and when the European Union rules are revoked it is likely that any freedoms which currently exist will only be eroded further.
It is equally unlikely that the Trade Unions will be in any position to do anything to make a substantial improvement.
That also is a simple reality for the times we live in.
Steve


One other thought... I assume you're talking about life in the U.K. post Brexit. If so take comfort, as I pointed out in another thread, there are apparently several skirt cafe members that live in the U.S. deep south, a land known for extremely backward laws and tightly closed minds. Additionally in virtually all southern states, there are literally zero protections for anyone outside if the biggies (race and religion, and that's mostly because of federal legislation). Also, virtually all southern states are anti-union (right to work) which means when it comes to employment, we're pretty much on our own.

Anyway, the point is that despite all of this, many of us (myself included) somehow manage to survive. Sure there are occasional struggles, but thankfully there enough southerners who seem to respect my right to choose my own lifestyle, and so they don't tar and feather me.

Turn off the news.... it's bad for the soul. Our life is a gift of the creator, not a privilege granted from legislation. People will be people, we can't change their views, all we can do is live our lives to the satisfaction of our own spirit and try not to worry about the ills of the world at large.
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Re: a blog on style

Postby jmiller842 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:42 pm

On the topic of "Dress Code", I have reviewed my company's policy and it does not reference any gender roles in what is considered appropriate or inappropriate. It reads in part:

"Acceptable attire includes (but is not limited to) - Docker-style or dress pants; dress
capris; blouses, sweaters; shirts with collars; suit or sport jackets; casual dresses and
skirts of a length that allow you to sit comfortably in public; skirts that are split below the
knee; dress or loafer-style shoes; flats; dress heels; boots; head covers that are required
for religious purposes."

I read this as I can wear pants, capris, dressses, and skirts. No mention of "Men shall wear..." or "Women shall wear...". If they did, the policy would be inherently sexist.

Now, I have never worn a skirt to work, and likely never will. Although I have worn a skirt while attending conferences and seminars that were paid for by my company. So I'm thinking that our company policy would be all-inclusive. I could wear a skirt if I so chose, and wouldn't be violating the policy. Except for one little phrase near the end of the policy: "Management reserves the right to determine appropriateness." To me, that gives the company carte blanche to make any decision on dress code for any silly reason they want. That's their way out of any accusation of sexism, if I were to where a skirt to work. "Management determines that it's not appropriate for you to wear a skirt to work Mr. Miller. Now go home and change." it's an argument that I's like to have someday, with women wearing skirts present in the room.

Jeff
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Re: a blog on style

Postby Grok » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:55 pm

In one important way I have compartmentalized my life into two parts-work, and everything else. My job is hard enough as it is that I avoid controversies if at all possible. For example, I never discuss politics or religion when on the job, or with co-workers at any time. Another example-I always wear twin-tubes to work.
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Re: a blog on style

Postby Sinned » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:31 pm

Jeff, you are right that it's fine in theory but practice is another matter. My company doesn't specify sex or gender when listing acceptable clothing and we have an Equality Statement that would allow it but ....

.... I know that it wouldn't be acceptable on the shop floor as part of my uniform. As far as I know there is no such get out clause in my company's policy but then I have just read the summary and not the detailed document. Yes, on that basis they could disallow you wearing skirts on company time. The policy is probably written in that way to satisfy Equality Laws.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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