skirtcafe.org

Daryl wrote:Quibble 1: The transexual people I've met and conversed with, all biological males, would largely NOT have said that "gender roles" was any part of their status or situation. They would have just said that they knew they were women "inside" and simply wanted their outsides to match. Three that I know did not change "role" at all (one programmer and two electricians). Only one have I known long enough to see through a long-term marriage (still intact) with a man. All this business about it being about roles and gendered social norms is comparatively recent and I'm still not convinced your average transexual (whether completed or planning SRS) cares much about it. As far as I can tell "sex" and "gender" mean the same thing to them and their objective is to become the opposite one. They do not question the "binary", merely which side of it their bodies are on.

Then I must ask, what exactly... is a woman?

Daryl wrote:Quibble 1: ... All this business about it being about roles and gendered social norms is comparatively recent

It has always been there, but has only recently become visible because transgender/transsexual people are starting to come out of their shells and be seen (some a little too blatantly, I agree).  An interesting comparison can be made with the statistics for left-handed children in Australia: in 1900, a census showed they accounted for about 1% of the population but a survey 10 years later showed 10%. The difference was not caused by a sudden increase in left-handers, but by a change in school policy: they no longer forced left-handed kids to use their right hands or beat the hell out of them if they didn't.

Another cause of increased visibility is the hate campaigns beng waged by a relatively small group of people with access to the gutter media; one such rag in the U.K. publishes one or sometimes two prominient transgender hate stories each weekend.  Sometimes the more mainstream media pick up on these stories and run them unchecked; then, in the interest of 'balance', they organise a debate which gives the haters an opportunity to disseminate even more fake news.  The public is subjected to a constant bombardment of claim and counter-claim to the point where they are fed up with the whole thing.

...and I'm still not convinced your average transexual (whether completed or planning SRS) cares much about it. As far as I can tell "sex" and "gender" mean the same thing to them and their objective is to become the opposite one. They do not question the "binary", merely which side of it their bodies are on.

I've seen a much wider spectrum in the online groups: there are the binary ones you have described, but there are also those who don't fit the binary or who are uncertin about where they fit.  The interesting thing is that individual gender is fixed - the thing that changes is the person's realisiation of it as their knowledge improves and they refine their ideas.  A few people have a kind of 'wandering' gender - but that is also 'fixed' in that they stay wandering for life and never settle down.

pelmut wrote:Sometimes the more mainstream media pick up on these stories and run them unchecked; then, in the interest of 'balance', they organise a debate which gives the haters an opportunity to disseminate even more fake news.

Interesting that basic human rights even have to be debated...

You know, I'll say that my understanding of transgender issues is lacking. In fact, as I've mentioned in other threads on this site I've uncovered a few "flaws" [0] (for lack of a better term) that I can't seem to get my head around. But there are two CORE reasons I am and remain a trans-ally:

1) It's their right to find their own path, and I have no right to interfere.

2) The fear mongering of the opposers and the tactics that they employ to stifle the movement is dangerous to the overall fabric of individual liberty.

Another cause of increased visibility is the hate campaigns beng waged by a relatively small group of people with access to the gutter media; one such rag in the U.K. publishes one or sometimes two prominient transgender hate stories each weekend.

We have a few of those too, that want to ban everything they view as morally offensive. We also have a few on the counter movements side whom I've found are guilty of wanting to ban everything that might hurt someones feelings. (which could be anything... really.) Individually, we are expected to choose a side. A small minority of us (and I do count myself among that lot) refuse to [choose a side].

[0] I'll admit that the flaw may be with my own brain rather than the issue I'm trying to have that brain understand.

With regard to T.V. and transgender issues....I am afraid that subject is not within my remit, or as far as I am aware ,
within the remit of The Skirt Café ,so I will steer clear of the issues......Perhaps some will agree with me...
It is my opinion that any member who wishes to do so is perfectly within his rights to explore this subject on another forum.....
As we are now in 2019, please do not wash your dirty linen in public on this forum.......weeladdie

weeladdie18 wrote:...As we are now in 2019, please do not wash your dirty linen in public on this forum.......weeladdie

There is a fine line between 'washing dirty linen in public' and exchanging information on topics related to how and why we dress the way we do.  I agree that we should not cross that line, but I don't think any of us have recently.

pelmut wrote:

weeladdie18 wrote:...As we are now in 2019, please do not wash your dirty linen in public on this forum.......weeladdie

There is a fine line between 'washing dirty linen in public' and exchanging information on topics related to how and why we dress the way we do.  I agree that we should not cross that line, but I don't think any of us have recently.

therefor is the off-topic section.

Gusto10 wrote:

pelmut wrote:

weeladdie18 wrote:...As we are now in 2019, please do not wash your dirty linen in public on this forum.......weeladdie

There is a fine line between 'washing dirty linen in public' and exchanging information on topics related to how and why we dress the way we do.  I agree that we should not cross that line, but I don't think any of us have recently.

therefor is the off-topic section.

Ya'llve lost me....

(I don't get it big Dan)

Ya'llve lost me....

(I don't get it big Dan)

If I’m reading their comments correctly they’re saying not to air your dirty laundry( business) on this particular topic on the forums or your view point as they don’t want to direct this topic towards whatever your comments was referring to. I’m thinking because it’s a touchy subject and may get this forum post locked.

Yes. Decidedly so. Get on Pinterest and search men in kilts, men in skirts, Comme des Garsons skirts for men, Yohji Yamamoto skirts for men.

Here is my take on it.

1. Pick a skirt that reads to traditional male skirts and tunics world wide. That means the following;
- Kilts or anything like a kilt. Knee length, just above the knee or just below. All are ok.
- Long straight but not too fitted. These read like high fashion. Go with manly wools, black or dark tones.
- Skirt Pants - Popular now in high fashion and easy to find knock offs. Looks like a long skirt from afar, turns out to be pants up close. Go with dark colors.

2. Choose your colors carefully.
- Man wools
- Black, black and more black
- Tartans
- Artsy red on black or white or gray on black.

3. Avoid curvy fitting skirts, go for many skirts. Remember short kilts are worn in many cultures. Straight skirts are worn by many men all over the world and heavy pleats are common in high fashion.

3. Shoes. Shoes, shoes, shoes. Critical for any outfit not just skirts.
- Manly work boots in black with any skirt is a good fit. Monkey boots, over the ankle boots, Doc Martins 8, 10, 14 hole. Tall work boots with kilts if you are brave enough. Great in urban settings.
- Nice shoes with low socks. Black, brown or whatever matches. But make them manly.
- Summer converse, very simple sandals, manly low gladiator sandals, and bring back the boots for summer.
- Rule #1 for me. Avoid bad socks at all costs.

4. Leggings
- Find male looking leggings. Dark grey or black. Avoid anything shiny.
- Socks should be masculine and match the length to the shoes. Go 1980s UK fashion with socks just over the tops of boots.

6. What to wear on top.
- Go with your usual manly clothing. A nice dress shirt, vest and jacket over long straight skirts or kilts.
- If you avoid overtly feminine tops then the skirts will read as male.

7. Hats
- I love paperboy driver caps, fedoras, berets are all good.
- Hats can redefine an outfit.

So those are my notes on making skirts truly masculine. Regardless of your age or body type, these points work.

Yes. Decidedly so. Get on Pinterest and search men in kilts, men in skirts, Comme des Garsons skirts for men, Yohji Yamamoto skirts for men.

Here is my take on it.

1. Pick a skirt that reads to traditional male skirts and tunics world wide. That means the following;
- Kilts or anything like a kilt. Knee length, just above the knee or just below. All are ok.
- Long straight but not too fitted. These read like high fashion. Go with manly wools, black or dark tones.
- Skirt Pants - Popular now in high fashion and easy to find knock offs. Looks like a long skirt from afar, turns out to be pants up close. Go with dark colors.

2. Choose your colors carefully.
- Man wools
- Black, black and more black
- Tartans
- Artsy red on black or white or gray on black.

3. Avoid curvy fitting skirts, go for many skirts. Remember short kilts are worn in many cultures. Straight skirts are worn by many men all over the world and heavy pleats are common in high fashion.

3. Shoes. Shoes, shoes, shoes. Critical for any outfit not just skirts.
- Manly work boots in black with any skirt is a good fit. Monkey boots, over the ankle boots, Doc Martins 8, 10, 14 hole. Tall work boots with kilts if you are brave enough. Great in urban settings.
- Nice shoes with low socks. Black, brown or whatever matches. But make them manly.
- Summer converse, very simple sandals, manly low gladiator sandals, and bring back the boots for summer.
- Rule #1 for me. Avoid bad socks at all costs.

4. Leggings
- Find male looking leggings. Dark grey or black. Avoid anything shiny.
- Socks should be masculine and match the length to the shoes. Go 1980s UK fashion with socks just over the tops of boots.

6. What to wear on top.
- Go with your usual manly clothing. A nice dress shirt, vest and jacket over long straight skirts or kilts.
- If you avoid overtly feminine tops then the skirts will read as male.

7. Hats
- I love paperboy driver caps, fedoras, berets are all good.
- Hats can redefine an outfit.

So those are my notes on making skirts truly masculine. Regardless of your age or body type, these points work.

It's interesting reading all the proposed "rules" or "guidelines" for making a skirt look "masculine", but I feel that in doing so we're looking in the wrong place. What we're doing is willingly confining ourselves to what others deem "masculine", and that "box" has been being shrunk for decades to the point where it now fits like a coffin. Are we really interested in being defined by sombre colours, scratchy fabrics, and somebody else's whims?

To my mind, in addition to pushing back the boundaries of men's styles it's also about pushing hard and opening up the "box" constrained in to where it was two or three generations ago. I'm not interested in being nailed into a coffin-sized box that's continuing to shrink. Nor, I suspect, if we think about it in those terms, are many of us. I'm sick and tired of the parody that modern masculinity has been turned into. By allowing all of the good things about masculinity to be taken away from us (lest we be considered "unmanly" by the new definition), we have constrained ourselves to only exhibiting the bad points -- and that's corrosive. We need to take back the good. Yes, we're going to take some stick for it, but that stick is going to be (ultimately) coming from those who wish to control us.

So, throw off the artificial shackles that society deems we must wear. Free your mind, free your soul. Before it's too late (if it isn't already).

A free man isn't defined by masculinity

A free man defines masculinity

As a Man I don't need rules to tell me how to dress! I dress in a style that I like wither It is in men's clothes or in woman's clothes. The only thing I insist on is comfort, if it is not comfortable then I don't wear it...PERIOD!!!! While I seldom wear any thing from the mens side of the store anymore (Mostly shirts and shoes), I must be comfortable to function and my styles are not for everyone but I like them. When I gave up pants to the wearing of skirts and dresses I found I was far more comfortable in both mind and body. I don't worry about being or looking masculine, in fact I stopped worrying at all about what I was wearing. I just enjoy the freedom I have given myself!!!

Also what Moonshadow said!!!!

While some properties of a skirt may seem more masculine, such as having color and fabrics similar to men's clothes and not being very glitzy, the real determinant is the eye of the beholder.

It's the difference between
Oh look, there's a man in a skirt.
and
Oh look, there's a man in a woman's skirt.

Sorry, KellyRain, nice try but of the "rules" you listed I break just about every one of them and I suspect that quite a few on this forum do. It has been said that the only rule for us is that there aren't any rules. We are defining our styles as our whim dictates. We make mistakes, sure, but we learn and progress. It's OK listing everything as a means to introduce other men to skirt wearing but if and when they do convert then I suspect that they will ignore the rules and do their own thing just as we do. I can't think of one regular contributor that would even consider dressing according to your suggestions. Carl is right - trying to define skirts in terms of fitting with or extending current male fashion is too limiting and confines the mind to its little box, coffin as Carl suggested, instead of opening the door and letting it fly free.