Can a skirt ever look masculine

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.

Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby STEVIE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:44 am

The transgendered person is not questioning fashion.
He or she is in conflict with the very core of their being and not from any choice or whim as we know it.
That should merit a certain respect from any reasonable viewpoint.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby Ray » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:57 pm

Steve

Wise words. Many who judge would do well to heed them.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby Sinned » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:59 pm

I had a "woman" come to my checkout the other day. She had an adam's apple, deepish voice but appeared in woman's clothes with very long hair. I couldn't tell if she was transitioning but her manner was very soft and almost shy, as if there was a tad of embarrassment there. I treated her with the respect that I have for any other woman. If it was a man dressed up as a woman then I appreciate how much courage it rakes to do so and he still had my respect. Thinking back on it I'm still not sure which it was.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby STEVIE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:52 pm

Hi Sinned
We have no need to be sure in most circumstances.
You got the crucial bit right.
Show humanity to another human being, it is easy and best of all, free.
On another note, to echo Baldrick, I am hatching a cunning plan for a "Masculine" outfit that has been inspired by this thread.
Happy New Year All.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby Happy-N-Skirts » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:10 pm

When I am shopping for skirts I ask the sales lady to show me "masculine skirts." They seem to understand my request and show me skirts that are stealthy and don't have pleats, flowers, or bright colors. There have been times when they have put away an item in my size they think I would like and wait until I visit. Recently my wife and I visited a store and the sales associate said she missed seeing me as it has been several months since I have been there. They usually show me things that I might like and wait outside the dressing room to see if it fits right or looks good on me. I get very special attention in several stores. Some have a high turnover and the leave or get transferred to a different department or store.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby pelmut » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:28 pm

Sinned wrote:....Thinking back on it I'm still not sure which it was.

Would you have treated a woman any different from a man?  It doesn't really matter that you didn't know as long as you treated them with the same respect as anyone else.

I once asked for directions to a particular supermarket product from a managerial type, who appeared to be explaining things to a trainee.  He replied "It's in aisle three sir..." and then, spotting my skirt, said "It's in aisle three" ...but left off the "sir".  That was the only change he needed to make, and it was done perfectly respectfully.  I hope the trainee took note.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby moonshadow » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:20 pm

My understanding is that:

A drag queen: A man who impersonates women in extravagant, exaggerated, and highly flamboyant styles fashions, and mannerisms for the entertainment of an audience. More often that not, it is likely an occupation rather than a lifestyle. Though some drag queens may also have a private "LGB or T" lifestyle.

A Transvestite: Is a man who dresses and behaves in manners customarily assigned to women, perhaps even going so far as to adopt feminine names and other mannerisms. While this may be somewhat of an alter ego, he likely lives most of his life, (professionally and perhaps most of his private life with friends and family) as a man, only "dressing" in certain situations where he feels appropriate and acceptable.

A Crossdresser: Like the transvestite, only I hold to the notion that women can and do crossdress. It's just not as much of a talking point as it is when a man does for some reason. I've never heard of a genetic female transvestite, so I have separated the two definitions.

Transgender: Can be any sex (male or female at birth) who doesn't align with the gender roles assigned to their sex. Thus, they begin a lifestyle whereas they live their life enacting the gender roles of the opposite sex.

Transexual: Is a transgendered person who went all the way and actually had their anatomy surgically changed to the opposite sex. e.g. A penis removed and in it's place a vagina, or vice versa. Though at this stage in medical development to my knowledge the transexual woman will not be able to have menstrual cycles or bear children, nor will the transexual man be able to impregnate a female, so the surgeries may be regarded as for aesthetics, or perhaps to obtain legal status as the opposite sex which is required in some states.

A man in a skirt: Is a man wearing a skirt.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby moonshadow » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:38 pm

weeladdie18 wrote:The T.V. however has a wish to appear as a Woman,......Please note I am stating the English word , " Woman " and not "Lady " .......
One is often a slut and a carrier of the pox , and perhaps lives in the local hoare house ; ......


That is as much as I can say within the remit of our Skirt Café. Gentlemen , we are treading on very dangerous ground........


Indeed.... I would go easy on that sentiment in certain company.... I know a lot of women what wouldn't take too kindly to being regarded as whores.

I understand what you're saying, the difference between being "a lady" and "a woman" for instance. And perhaps it has some historical accuracy (as far as semantics go), but I'm just saying I'd go light on that here in 2018.

Additionally, I've read of lots of crossdressers and transvestites who are indeed quite "lady like", and pride themselves on a respectable "feminine appearance" in addition to being sexually virtuous.

As a side, and if I may indulge one of my own personal tangents, I believe the crossdresser, or even transgender woman may be the ones who save the customs of the "lady", as many genetic females ("women") I meet more often than not are quite masculine in dress and mannerisms.... especially mannerisms! So many genetic women have obsessed over becoming "one of the guys" that they have shunned any forms of femininity. If not for the transgender community, I'd say that in a few generations time, we'd be a completely masculine society.

So... with that... here's to the transgender women... carrying the baton of womanhood into the new millennium and keeping things in balance! Oh.. and the skirt wearing men who don't give a damn about shouldering the burdens of masculinity!

*cheers* :toast: :pint:
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby pelmut » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:26 pm

moonshadow wrote:My understanding is that:

A drag queen: A man who impersonates women in extravagant, exaggerated, and highly flamboyant styles fashions, and mannerisms for the entertainment of an audience. More often that not, it is likely an occupation rather than a lifestyle. Though some drag queens may also have a private "LGB or T" lifestyle.

A Transvestite: Is a man who dresses and behaves in manners customarily assigned to women, perhaps even going so far as to adopt feminine names and other mannerisms. While this may be somewhat of an alter ego, he likely lives most of his life, (professionally and perhaps most of his private life with friends and family) as a man, only "dressing" in certain situations where he feels appropriate and acceptable.

A Crossdresser: Like the transvestite, only I hold to the notion that women can and do crossdress. It's just not as much of a talking point as it is when a man does for some reason. I've never heard of a genetic female transvestite, so I have separated the two definitions.

Transgender: Can be any sex (male or female at birth) who doesn't align with the gender roles assigned to their sex. Thus, they begin a lifestyle whereas they live their life enacting the gender roles of the opposite sex.

Transexual: Is a transgendered person who went all the way and actually had their anatomy surgically changed to the opposite sex. e.g. A penis removed and in it's place a vagina, or vice versa. Though at this stage in medical development to my knowledge the transexual woman will not be able to have menstrual cycles or bear children, nor will the transexual man be able to impregnate a female, so the surgeries may be regarded as for aesthetics, or perhaps to obtain legal status as the opposite sex which is required in some states.

A man in a skirt: Is a man wearing a skirt.


Spot on!
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby Ralph » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:29 pm

moonshadow wrote:My understanding is that:
A Transvestite: Is a man who dresses and behaves in manners customarily assigned to women, perhaps even going so far as to adopt feminine names and other mannerisms. While this may be somewhat of an alter ego, he likely lives most of his life, (professionally and perhaps most of his private life with friends and family) as a man, only "dressing" in certain situations where he feels appropriate and acceptable.
A Crossdresser: Like the transvestite, only I hold to the notion that women can and do crossdress. It's just not as much of a talking point as it is when a man does for some reason. I've never heard of a genetic female transvestite, so I have separated the two definitions.


That's one of those "your mileage may vary" concepts. Literally, the two words mean exactly the same thing ("trans"="cross"; "vest"="dress/clothing"). The specific interpretation of the two words varies wildly in different regions and among different people depending on the culture in which they were raised. For some, there is no conceptual difference between the words; one just sounds more clinical than the other (because everything sounds smarter in Latin, ipso facto). Others interpret them much as you have. Still others associate "transvestite" with more of a fetish aspect but "crossdresser" with a serious desire to become the opposite sex, if only temporarily.

As I have mentioned in previous rants, even determining whether one is crossdressing varies on a lot of linguistic technicalities and personal preference. Strictly speaking, anyone of any sex who wears any portion of clothing that was intended for the other sex is crossdressing -- from that homophobic linebacker wearing his wife's panties to the trendy young woman wearing her boyfriend's shirt; others only see it as crossdressing if you go the whole nine yards and wear undergarments, skirt/blouse or dress, makeup, wig, jewelry, etc. in a deliberate effort to appear the opposite sex. To put it another way, crossdressing is in the eye of the beholder. Just because you've convinced yourself that you're not crossdressing (or a transvestite, or a drag queen) doesn't mean your neighbors, or your family, or your priest, will agree with your interpretation.

That's why I've abandoned labels entirely. I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam. If some think that wearing a dress over a nylon slip makes me a crossdresser (or transvestite, or drag queen) despite the full beard and short, unkempt hair, nothing I can say or do will change their mind.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby PatJ » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:11 pm

Why does transvestite have to be a man? I know women who dress in "men's" clothes and act like men. And why does crossdresser have to be a man? Same as above - women do it all the time. And no one mention drab kings - if the terms apply to men - the reverse must apply to women. The same standards need to be applied to both sexes.


(Drab - dressed as a boy)
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby Sinned » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:17 pm

pelmut, no, I wouldn't have treated her/him any differently if I had been sure that she was a woman. I respond to the person not their manner of dress. I actually had a lot of empathy for the personal discomfort and pain that he/she must have gone through to reach their current level of acceptance of themselves. After all, it was not THAT long ago when I was uncomfortable going out in a skirt, or a cami top or ....

Moon, you aren't the only one that think that all women cross-dress to one degree or another.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby crfriend » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:06 pm

I'm with Ralph on the transvestite == crossdresser equality. They are precisely the same thing, full stop. The term "transvestite" was coined by somebody writing a thesis and needed something more intellectual-sounding than "cross-dresser" which was already colloquially in use. Finis.

Now, the issue of what constitutes cross-dressing is a matter of conjecture, and local social mores. In the barren part of the world I happen to dwell it is is ipso-facto impossible for a woman to crossdress simply by virtue of the fact that women have usurped the entire range of male clothing right on down to jock-straps. There is precisely nothing left that is exclusively in the male domain. Hence, women de-facto cannot crossdress. In the same span of time, what's been considered acceptable for men, however, has narrowed dramatically, and now is astonishingly and stultifyingly narrow. It's that later component I'm trying to fight a rear-guard action against.
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby moonshadow » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:14 am

crfriend wrote:I'm with Ralph on the transvestite == crossdresser equality. They are precisely the same thing, full stop.


Origin of the term

Magnus Hirschfeld coined the word transvestite in 1910 (from Latin trans-, "across, over" and vestitus, "dressed") to refer to the sexual interest in cross-dressing.[8] He used it to describe persons who habitually and voluntarily wore clothes of the opposite sex. Hirschfeld's group of transvestites consisted of both males and females, with heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual orientations.[9]


Source: Wikipedia

I stand corrected, this round to you sir!
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Re: Can a skirt ever look masculine

Postby Daryl » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:36 am

pelmut wrote:
moonshadow wrote:My understanding is that:

A drag queen: A man who impersonates women in extravagant, exaggerated, and highly flamboyant styles fashions, and mannerisms for the entertainment of an audience. More often that not, it is likely an occupation rather than a lifestyle. Though some drag queens may also have a private "LGB or T" lifestyle.

A Transvestite: Is a man who dresses and behaves in manners customarily assigned to women, perhaps even going so far as to adopt feminine names and other mannerisms. While this may be somewhat of an alter ego, he likely lives most of his life, (professionally and perhaps most of his private life with friends and family) as a man, only "dressing" in certain situations where he feels appropriate and acceptable.

A Crossdresser: Like the transvestite, only I hold to the notion that women can and do crossdress. It's just not as much of a talking point as it is when a man does for some reason. I've never heard of a genetic female transvestite, so I have separated the two definitions.

Transgender: Can be any sex (male or female at birth) who doesn't align with the gender roles assigned to their sex. Thus, they begin a lifestyle whereas they live their life enacting the gender roles of the opposite sex.

Transexual: Is a transgendered person who went all the way and actually had their anatomy surgically changed to the opposite sex. e.g. A penis removed and in it's place a vagina, or vice versa. Though at this stage in medical development to my knowledge the transexual woman will not be able to have menstrual cycles or bear children, nor will the transexual man be able to impregnate a female, so the surgeries may be regarded as for aesthetics, or perhaps to obtain legal status as the opposite sex which is required in some states.

A man in a skirt: Is a man wearing a skirt.


Spot on!


It's certainly a good attempt, even good enough for most purposes, but part of my purpose on this earth is to quibble, so I do.

Quibble 1: The transexual people I've met and conversed with, all biological males, would largely NOT have said that "gender roles" was any part of their status or situation. They would have just said that they knew they were women "inside" and simply wanted their outsides to match. Three that I know did not change "role" at all (one programmer and two electricians). Only one have I known long enough to see through a long-term marriage (still intact) with a man. All this business about it being about roles and gendered social norms is comparatively recent and I'm still not convinced your average transexual (whether completed or planning SRS) cares much about it. As far as I can tell "sex" and "gender" mean the same thing to them and their objective is to become the opposite one. They do not question the "binary", merely which side of it their bodies are on.

Quibble 2: For transexuals, surgeries are not for "aesthetics" but for transformation; becoming the other sex as much as practical, and being convincing at it. The most successful TS I know had the full treatment from the get-go, even adam's-apple removal and surgical voicebox alteration. She sounds female, not like a man simulating a feminine voice. The whole deal costs a bundle and takes a lot of time and energy; way more commitment than even extreme bodymods (which are for aesthetics almost by definition).

Quibble 3: "Transgender" is meaningless with this definition because it covers everyone. A father who does most or all of the caring for the kids (a traditionally female role) is transgender by this definition. A distinction that makes no real distinction, is no distinction.
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