Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.

Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby Grok » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:44 pm

moonshadow wrote: Non-kilt skirts have a female and feminine stigma attached to them that many men want to avoid.

As was mentioned in another thread, skirts intended for athletic/outdoors activities might be accepted as mens wear.
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby weeladdie18 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:25 pm

I feel that as we have aired our views and experiences , on this thread , we should read the rules
of this forum again and consider our personal position and objectives in our lives.
If being a " Man in a Skirt " is not ones final objective , I would suggest one joins a national T.V. Group
on a years subscription...... This is a way to explore the World of Skirt Wearing outside the remit of
The Skirt Café. ....This would give one an idea of where other members of the Male Gender are coming
from and where they are going. The Regional Group meetings are private and confidential...........
I see no further reason to personally pass comment on activities outside the scope of the Skirt Café.

Happy Skirting gentlemen................ .........weeladdie
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby weeladdie18 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:45 pm

Grok wrote:
moonshadow wrote: Non-kilt skirts have a female and feminine stigma attached to them that many men want to avoid.

As was mentioned in another thread, skirts intended for athletic/outdoors activities might be accepted as mens wear.


There are certain athletic/outdoor activity skirts specifically designed for male wear.
I feel these Items should be discussed initially under their own thread.

At this time a stigma exists regarding the wearing of this fashion of garment by the male.

Please would the Mods transfer this post of mine to an O P thread in a suitable section of the forum.
Thank you very much ...........weeladdie
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby moonshadow » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:07 pm

crfriend wrote:That's the classic dictionary definition, and the one you'll find in dictionaries from the 1960s and earlier. However, thanks to "language drift" it's taken on connotations that some folks don't want to be associated with for an assortment of reasons. (For similar drifted words, see "spook", "conservative", "gay", and "liberal".)


That's possible, though among those in the LGBT group I don't think most of them assume the homosexual definition of the word generally speaking. After all there is already a letter in the acronym for homosexuals.

Those outside of the group might find a few of us homosexual, but that's either due to ignorance and/or bigotry in general. There is not really a lot you can do about that but attempt to educate those with that perception.

........

As for the other commentors, I submit that simply wearing a skirt does not make one transgender. Otherwise what is to be said of trans-women who wear pants?

Further, I seem to recall a time when many in the LGB group were opposed to adding the T because it really had nothing to do with sexuality by itself. On that line of thinking we actually have more in common with the T group then the other three.

Our wearing skirts is not necessarily a reflection of our sexuality, but it is a reflection of how we see the social constructs of gender roles and expression.

But again, for those who want no part of the alphabet soup, that's certainly their right, and nobody is forcing it.

But what really bugs me is everyone wants to be accepted, but few are willing to accept. I see this play out on both sides far too often.

By God we're all humans, free to make our own life choices, can't we at least agree on that? Maybe we should eliminate the LGBT acronym and just replace it with "H"....

... of course that might offend the furries.... :lol:
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby moonshadow » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:18 pm

Grok wrote:
moonshadow wrote: Non-kilt skirts have a female and feminine stigma attached to them that many men want to avoid.

As was mentioned in another thread, skirts intended for athletic/outdoors activities might be accepted as mens wear.


FWIW, where I live the majority of people will look at ALL skirts as womens wear. There are quite few who even view traditional kilts as unacceptable for men.

So basically I don't care how manly you try to present... you come to Appalachia in anything less than two tubes.... they're going to think you're a weirdo anyway.... So just roll with it and be yourself. Pay no attention to the "rules"....
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby Grok » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:27 pm

moonshadow wrote:
As for the other commentors, I submit that simply wearing a skirt does not make one transgender. Otherwise what is to be said of trans-women who wear pants?
If wearing a skirt like garment means that a male must be Trans, then the males of certain nations must all be Trans. :shock: (I am referring to traditional Male Unbifurcated Garments of those cultures). :D
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby Grok » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:38 pm

I am fortunate in one respect-I live in Seattle, and kilting is accepted here.
Last edited by Grok on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby crfriend » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:58 pm

moonshadow wrote:By God we're all humans, free to make our own life choices, can't we at least agree on that? Maybe we should eliminate the LGBT acronym and just replace it with "H"....

But that's too inclusive and won't serve the desire for divisiveness. Contemplate a world where we're all human for a moment: a world without hate, a world without discrimination, and a world of equality. Now compare that to the way that the masters of various nations, states, and factions want it -- the gears grind uncontrollably and will never mesh. So, we're stuck where we are -- by human design. Ignorant, idiotic, and bigoted design.
... of course that might offend the furries.... :lol:

But underneath all that external assemblage they're human. I guess.
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby moonshadow » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:02 am

crfriend wrote: Now compare that to the way that the masters of various nations, states, and factions want it -- the gears grind uncontrollably and will never mesh. So, we're stuck where we are -- by human design. Ignorant, idiotic, and bigoted design


Yeah so it seems... :(
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby skirtingtheissue » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:28 am

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:So PLEASE, stop denying your genuine selves! Stop looking for the right time and place to wear your skirt in public, with the exception of work, and just do it!
That is a very legitimate point of view, even for some folks whose circumstances permit them to do so at work.

But there is a value to mass visibility also. "Events" bring more publicity and end up being of more educational value to the general public who are ignorant of our movement. There are several examples of such:

-- HEJ (Hommes en Jupe) creates events, for example see https://asso.i-hej.com/nos-actions
-- the World Naked Bike Ride events send the message (among others) "Hey, it's OK to be nude" -- body positive etc.
-- and then in a humorous vein are the organized "No Pants Day" events in which strange dress becomes normalized by sheer numbers of participants, for example working with precision to crowd certain subway cars.

So I fundamentally subscribe to Pdx's philosophy, but I think a Dresses for Men day or Skirts for Men day would be a fun endeavor! It would open people's eyes and make people think more than we can do individually.

-----Henry
When I heard about skirting, I jumped in with both feet!
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby Pdxfashionpioneer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:09 pm

Thank you Moonshadow for supporting and clarifying what I trying to get across. Henry, Daryl and Grok thank you too for your support. Though Daryl, I wasn't able to follow your concerns about the current stances of the Pride Movements. I thought I had a fairly extensive vocabulary but "reification" is a new one on me. and I don't know what you mean when you said that some L's, G's and B's had created their own binaries. Would you please take another crack at explaining all of that? I'm sure you've got some important ideas there, but I got lost in your verbiage and I'm sure we'd all benefit if you would say what you're thinking in simpler, clearer language.

Like Moonshadow, I don't care if anyone other male who sees me decides to start wearing skirts and dresses; I do hope that my example encourages other people to more openly and honestly accept themselves and live in that reality. I expect in time they will. When I was a college student working Summers in construction, we all knew we needed to shave our beards and even our mustaches and cut our hair short if we were going to fit in. Now look at our hardhats; they're all over the map in how they keep their hair and facial hair. Including some of the military veterans who are now construction workers.

Carl, I feel obliged to say that in today's usage only bigots categorically refer to male homosexuals as "queers," because when the term is used in that manner it's clearly a slur. Current usage is either the classic dictionary definition or close to it when used in the limited sense that classifies a group of people, namely those whose manner of personal presentation -- clothing, grooming, temporary enhancements, i.e. makeup and hair dye -- does not conform to the societal norms. For instance, there is a young Washingtonian who's something of an internet celebrity who wears his short hair in a feminine style, wears makeup and women's clothes so looks for all the world like a very flat-chested woman. Though not quite. Some who refer to him as a "gender queer." And you could probably call him that to his face and rather than being insulted he'd say, "By George, you've got it!"

One last thought, "asking permission" to wear a skirt at work wasn't exactly what I did. To be precise, I asked if that would be covered under the company's policies and if, as a temporary, those policies would apply to me. I then asked my supervisor and his manager if they would have a problem if I were to exercise that prerogative, because as a temp I was there to solve there problems, not create them. They responded that not only was wearing dresses there covered by the company's diversity policy and they were perfectly ok with it, but they told me if I got even an inkling of flashback from anyone, they wanted to know about it so they could get that person straightened out! In short, I was very pleasantly surprised and very glad I checked because I knew I could proceed with confidence and without any more trepidation than my own butterflies. Consequently, it all went very smoothly and was a whole lot of fun!

But let's be clear, the original impulse to write a diversity policy came from it being a legal requirement. The legal requirement came from the lobbying and political pressure exerted by the LGBT community. And now we're protected from workplace discrimination in a number of states.

Once Intel took that step they realized it fit into an internal change in direction; namely, allowing and encouraging their employees to be more open and genuine at work and be their authentic selves on the job. They found that increased not only their job satisfaction but also their productivity and creativity.

In short, we have benefited from the gay pride movement, now get over old programming that is holding you back, learn your rights and assert them. Politely and respectfully discuss them with first your HR departments and then management so no one is blindsided and everyone can see you're trying to work within the system rather than rock the boat for its own sake.

Is that clear?

Dose that make sense?
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby crfriend » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:43 pm

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:I feel obliged to say that in today's usage only bigots categorically refer to male homosexuals as "queers," because when the term is used in that manner it's clearly a slur.

Indeed, and that's the main reason I tend to avoid the term altogether. Sadly, the percentage of bigots seems to be on the increase, or, perhaps they're just being more open and vocal in today's climate. I will occasionally use the term in a humorous context, but assiduously avoid it when being serious; one never knows when it'll get misinterpreted.
[...] wears his short hair in a feminine style [...]

Is there even a single hairstyle today that's the exclusive purview of the male of the species. I'd have thought that anything and everything is fair game for women, and men can get away with quite a bit.
And now we're protected from workplace discrimination in a number of states.

If -- and only if -- one is a member of a community that holds protected status. The gloves are likely off for anybody else. Use caution and personal experience in testing the waters.
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Re: Legitimizing a Day in a Dress for Men

Postby Pdxfashionpioneer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:00 pm

Any jurisdiction that protects "gender expression," which Oregon and a number of other states do, protects men wearing skirts. We fall under the label of "gender fluid," which, in turn, is included in the catchall "Q for Queer" category.

This is why I suggested one check his state and local law and compare it to their employer's diversity policy. If they don't have one and the organization is large enough that they should have one, your first step is to bring that to the attention of the human resources department with, in the interest of being helpful, a draft copy of a policy for your employer that does, in sufficiently general terms, cover men wearing skirts and dresses. Once it's approved, you discuss with HR -- because they're supposed to advocate for the policies, which means advocating for you -- what you want and how the diversity policy applies to you. Then ask them what they suggest your next steps should be.

Assuming you stick to the plan, if there is any blowback, you have HR to protect/back you up.

Even if HR doesn't include telling your supervisor first, it's a good idea. Categorically supervisors hate being surprised by their employees.
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