When will men wear women's clothing...

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.

Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby Daryl » Sat May 26, 2018 11:26 am

pelmut wrote:
Daryl wrote:The last thing anyone committed to the idea of "transgender" should want is to de-gender things, because without markers of gender there would be no way to "present" or "express" gender and thus no way to be transgender.

And this is the precise spot where the interests of the community of men in Skirt Cafe conflict with the interests of the trans community. Those interests don't merely sit with each other uneasily. They are in direct opposition to each other. Trans requires the maintenance of gender norms while equality requires the destruction of gender norms.

If the three underlying concepts of sex, gender and gender expression are distinguished from each other, there is no conflict between transpeople and people who wear skirts for other reasons.

Society has erroneously linked gender to biological sex and then drawn up what it sees as gender norms (other gender norms are available in other societies).  This has produced a chain of connections:

Sex  =X=  Gender  =Y=  Gender expression (norms)

...where links X and Y are the false links imposed by society.

Transpeople demonstrate that link X is incorrect, they break the false chain at X but continue to maintain the link Y and dress according to their gender.  Male skirt wearers break the false chain at Y and dress according to their personal preferences, they do not care about link X because it is not relevant to them.

The difficulties arise when people wrongly use the chain to insist that your gender expression, or simply your mode of dress, ought to align with your sex - or, worse still, use the chain backwards to suggest that your mode of dress says something about your gender or your sex.  Transpeople maintain link Y and cis-gendered skirt wearers maintain link X - but neither of them created these links and neither of them should be generating conflict by trying to impose false links on the other.


Well, that's an interesting piece of logic. The main flaws I see are, well, all of it. So maybe I won't bother undoing the many errors in your syllogism and just point out that you agreed with me. You said "trans people maintain link Y" but that is just the same as my assertion that the interests of the community of non-trans men who wear skirts and the interests of trans people are in direct conflict there. Trans people want their visual appearance -- their "gender expression" -- to identify their sex/gender and non-trans men do not want that. Full stop.

As for the rest of your reasoning, we already know that we vigorously disagree on the inventive conceptualisation of "gender" that is being promoted by some activists today, so not much you say that depends on reifying "gender" as other than a property of language (and not a property of people) holds water.

As for anyone "imposing" anything, unless and until you and people who agree with you have been successful at imposing new meanings and new abstractions on our common language, accusing others of imposing anything in that regard is a bit rich.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby Daryl » Sat May 26, 2018 11:29 am

weeladdie18 wrote:I may be going off the thread here..It is now late May and sunny days and warmer temperatures

are with us . Warm enough for me to wear my favourite summer skirts with only a shirt and

a traditional male sports jacket. ...Very comfortable for me.

I am seeing more ladies wearing light weight summer dresses or skirts with bare legs and

no tights or leggings.

Am I correct in assuming that both the male and female gender are happy to wear skirts

and dresses out of doors in suitable temperatures ?

[...]

than for an ego trip.......weeladdie


Your posts are coming out double-spaced, which makes difficult reading. Any idea how to fix that (anyone)?
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby Daryl » Sat May 26, 2018 11:43 am

pelmut wrote:
SkirtsDad wrote:A bit of bedtime reading for some perhaps:

"The maintenance of gender categories depends on reinforcement in day-to-day
behavior. Male and female could not persist as structurally important social categories if
we did not perform enough gendered and gendering behavior – if distinct groups of people did
not continue to act like “women” and like “men.” In other words, the gender order and the social
categories – male and female – on which it rests exist in virtue of social practice." ...

I would have my suspicions about authors who don't even know the difference between sex and gender or are so careless that they get their basic terminology wrong. "Male and female" refer to biological sex, "Masculine and feminine" would be the correct words for gender. This isn't because of some new-fangled redefinition of the terms, biologists and most English dictionaries have drawn that distinction for years


Oh rubbish. The words "masculine" and "feminine", in reference to other words -- to language -- are gender descriptors, that is true, but as soon as you use them to refer to people, they link to biological sex, not to some reification called "gender". This is common usage.

Resort to dictionary is really low. Dictionaries are informed by academics and their fads leak into them. And that phrase "for years", begs the question "how many years?" This is a recent development and language is being used as the site to impose a different set of concepts on society by fiat of academic authority. Yes, I said "impose" and "authority".

If that sounds improbable, look up how U.S. English came to differ from original English. It was imposed by Noah Webster, who single-handedly decided that some things needed to change, for example "centre" becoming "center" and "colour" becoming "color". He imposed those changes through the authority of his dictionary.

Biologists have never found a thing called "gender". It is a property of language, not of organisms.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby pelmut » Wed May 30, 2018 8:09 am

Daryl wrote:Biologists have never found a thing called "gender". It is a property of language, not of organisms.

I agree with you that the word "gender" has a meaning in language, but it also has a meaning in social and biological contexts - which means it is a property of organisms too.

Current biological research is finding differences in brain activity* that are linked to sex in cisgendered people in a particular way, but are linked the opposite way in transgendered people.  Although there has not yet been enough independent replication of the results to accept biological gender as a scientifically-proven fact, there is certainly enough evidence to accept it as a working hypothesis for further research.

*Many previous studies were claimed to have discovered sex-linked differences in brain structure, but were either mis-interpreted in the press or were later found to have been incorrectly analysed.  It is only recently that non-invasive detailed analysis of brain activity in a living person has become possible and that is where real differences are showing up.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby pelmut » Wed May 30, 2018 8:53 am

Daryl wrote:
pelmut wrote:
Sex  =X=  Gender  =Y=  Gender expression (norms)

...where links X and Y are the false links imposed by society.

[...]Trans people want their visual appearance -- their "gender expression" -- to identify their sex/gender and non-trans men do not want that.

Yes, I am agreeing with you on that point ... but there is another point which is more difficult for cis-people to grasp because they have never needed to consider it: non-trans men (cis-men) want their sex to identify their gender, they do not want people to assume they are transgender when they are not.  They are making use of a different false link from the one which transgender people use - but it is still a false link.

Non-skirt-wearers haven't thought about link Y and believe that our gender expression is the same thing as our gender. Cis-gendered people haven't thought about link X and believe that our gender is the same thing as our sex.  It is the links that are false - but the properties which they link together are real; gender exists independently of sex, just as gender expression exists independently of gender.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby crfriend » Wed May 30, 2018 9:14 am

pelmut wrote:[... T]here is another point which is more difficult for cis-people to grasp because they have never needed to consider it: non-trans men (cis-men) want their sex to identify their gender, they do not want people to assume they are transgender when they are not.  They are making use of a different false link from the one which transgender people use - but it is still a false link.

The links aren't entirely true, but at the same time aren't entirely false. They exist for a reason, and that reason is that they're highly correlated with the "common condition". Now, I am not saying that correlation equals causality but if the correlation is close to 100% folks tend to think that it is. The point being is that gender and sex tend to be highly correlated in most societies, although this is shifting in the west where we're rapidly becoming a matriarchy and men are now essentially disposable and are no longer valued by society.

No wonder folks are confused. I suspect it's more the societal shift that's exerting the effect than anything else. With the notion of masculinity hard up against the wall and what passes for femininity encroaching and putting pressure on what remains trouble is to be expected.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby pelmut » Wed May 30, 2018 11:42 am

crfriend wrote:
pelmut wrote:[... T]here is another point which is more difficult for cis-people to grasp because they have never needed to consider it: non-trans men (cis-men) want their sex to identify their gender, they do not want people to assume they are transgender when they are not.  They are making use of a different false link from the one which transgender people use - but it is still a false link.

The links aren't entirely true, but at the same time aren't entirely false. They exist for a reason, and that reason is that they're highly correlated with the "common condition". Now, I am not saying that correlation equals causality but if the correlation is close to 100% folks tend to think that it is. ...

Spot on! They are generally true but not absolutely true - and the problem (which is the same for men-in-skirts and transgender people) is that we have been brought up to believe they are absolute truths. This fallacy is enshrined in many laws and religions and was accepted unquestioningly by most people until recently.

Law, religion and society in general have used the rules in reverse and insisted that presentation must indicate gender which must indicate sex. When they see someone breaking their 'absolute' rule, it would never occur to them to wonder if it was the rule that was wrong, not the person.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby crfriend » Wed May 30, 2018 12:04 pm

This:
pelmut wrote:Law, religion and society in general have used the rules in reverse and insisted that presentation must indicate gender which must indicate sex. When they see someone breaking their 'absolute' rule, it would never occur to them to wonder if it was the rule that was wrong, not the person.
indicates that every time we put on a skirt or something else that's "non-traditional" in the west we are committing an act of "civil disobedience". Thank heavens it's not outright illegal to do so in most places.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby Sinned » Thu May 31, 2018 6:43 am

What you have said is probably right but the problem I, and others in this site, have is trying to explain these concepts to family members who may have trouble grasping what we are saying as what we are doing is contrary to their inner model of how things were, are and should always be. Some have difficulty recognising the separate concepts of sex, sexuality, sexual expression, gender, gender identity. The average person in the street probably couldn't care less about the distinctions, much less want to be eddycated. And that is a situation we would have difficulty overcoming, even if we should wish to do so. Oh, dear.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby SkirtsDad » Thu May 31, 2018 10:28 am

Sinned wrote:What you have said is probably right but the problem I, and others in this site, have is trying to explain these concepts to family members who may have trouble grasping what we are saying as what we are doing is contrary to their inner model of how things were, are and should always be. Some have difficulty recognising the separate concepts of sex, sexuality, sexual expression, gender, gender identity. The average person in the street probably couldn't care less about the distinctions, much less want to be eddycated. And that is a situation we would have difficulty overcoming, even if we should wish to do so. Oh, dear.


You have hit the nail on the head, and your wife is right, when you put a skirt on you are trying to be feminine or a woman or however else she sees it, and she probably doesn't want to be "eddycated" as you say.

Gender is performed, and that means not just clothing, but mannerisms, way of speaking etc. Without gender performance there is no gender. Just as with your wife, for most people, these societal norms (links), are not 'false', they are very 'real' in terms of an individual based on their cultural references, which includes, education, upbringing, religion, socio-economic class, peer group, location etc. etc. etc.

A Spanish friend of mine was shocked not long after moving from Spain to the south of the UK when he got invited to a wedding. He asked someone why all the men were in "fancy dress". Of course in reality they weren't, but at the time, my friend had no frame of reference that helped him see it differently.... the groom was Scottish.

Just as with my friend, exposure (the more the better) to alternative ideas, sometimes via reading, travel etc., helps change people points of reference, which in turn can alters cultural norms. It probably helps even more when there is a part of society that is out their campaigning to get their voice heard. Unfortunately, skirt wearing men have very little groundswell at all, where as the trans/non-binary movement is very strong. Although for the most part we tend to disassociate ourselves from them, they do share some similar goals, such as that of gaining acceptance no matter what ones appearance is. Based on this, I am more than happy to ride on their coattails.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby Grok » Thu May 31, 2018 5:56 pm

Awhile back I gave this some thought. Perhaps if businesses that sell womens skirts were to try marketing to men. This seems to have been the case with the Madras Kilt. However, members questioned whether the Madras Kilt would fit men. So to elaborate, when a business tries marketing to men a skirt-intended-for-larger-women.

If a business could sell to both men and women, that might get around the chicken or egg dilemma. To sell a skirt designed for men, the price is high, because there isn't enough demand to justify mass production. But high prices suppresses demand.

A skirt originally intended for women might be quite different from a skirt designed for men.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby crfriend » Thu May 31, 2018 6:31 pm

Grok wrote:Awhile back I gave this some thought. Perhaps if businesses that sell womens skirts were to try marketing to men. This seems to have been the case with the Madras Kilt.

It's also what happened with the Macabi skirt, although that one started off as a bit of an underground adoption by guys, the company recognises it and celebrates it -- albeit still marketing primarily to women.

Some traction might be gained by simply removing the marketing term "women" from "women's skirts" and saying, simply, "skirts". The more avant-garde retailers might actually try the rather subversive tactic of having the occasional image of a skirt on a guy on their web-pages. That likely wouldn't impact sales to women but might get a bit of mind-share from those who shop on-line. The big problem, though, is sizing and it's going to remain so until sizes are properly rationalised and "vanity sizing" is consigned to the waste-bin.

With skirts, there's really not that much of a difference between women's physiology and men's. So long as one can select a size that works, the same garment can work equally well for either sex. Yes, the classic hourglass-shaped woman will fill it out better than the slab-sided waif or a guy, but that's the way things are. Dresses are another animal altogether, but I have heard of split-sized dresses cut for one size up top and another below; these may be obsolete and unobtanium.
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby beachlion » Thu May 31, 2018 7:58 pm

crfriend wrote:...... Some traction might be gained by simply removing the marketing term "women" from "women's skirts" and saying, simply, "skirts". The more avant-garde retailers might actually try the rather subversive tactic of having the occasional image of a skirt on a guy on their web-pages. That likely wouldn't impact sales to women but might get a bit of mind-share from those who shop on-line. ......


Sneaking in pictures of guys in skirts where fitting on website pages might also relax or soften the yech-reflex of women in general when they see something unusual. It asks for Fingerspitzengefühl so to not scare the women away. Instead of discarding the image in a split-second, it should simmer in their brains. ;)
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby moonshadow » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:12 am

In regards to the gender thingy....

It seems to me that the core of what the debate comes down to is: what is a "man", and what is a "woman"? Some would argue that all males are men and vise versa, and all females are women and vice versa. This certainly would align with what I was always taught. While those on the trans* side argue that "men" and "women" as words, define gender.

An interesting thought experiment I've mentioned before, was on a hypothetical situation:

Imagine that tomorrow all gender roles were reversed. Everything that males traditionally do, females now do, and everything that females traditionally do, males now do. However, biologically, we're still the same. Males still inseminate the females, and the females still give birth, however after that point the roles are completely, one hundred percent reversed.

Would a trans-woman in this example still identify with "yesterdays female"?

I'll be the first to yield to the notion of pseudo-science, especially when it comes to gender. After all, it's pretty easy to conclude that gender roles are quite arbitrary as they are so varied across the animal kingdom, if they even exist at all in some species. How can a brain be wired to make one yearn to wear a dress, or a pair of baggy cargo-trousers when the concept of clothing itself isn't even natural? Which sex's hair was to be cut short (like a man) in a era prior to the invention of scissors??

I have not concluded this, but I'm getting close... gender is a religion. It's a belief system. This is not to say that there is no science in the notion of gender, for there is some level of science in most religions. But I am starting to see that like religion, it comes down to what one believes of his or her self, and like religion, we seek to proselytize the dogma onto others. And like religion, the concepts of which gender does what can never be definitively proven because the target is always moving and changing. Just when "science" comes up and says that all people with certain chromosomes want to wear dresses, someone with an opposite set of chromosomes comes along and wears a dress, thus busting the theory. And, finally like religion, people on all sides get fighting mad when someone else disagrees with their view on the subject, and all sides seem to have "science" that backs up their claims....

Hell fire... can't everybody be right can they?

2+2 is 5?

Interestingly enough, I have interpreted a set of passages in the bible to indicate that if taken literally, there was a time when there may not have been genders as we know them today. I read that there were "males and females" prior to the coming of "women". If there were males and females, but no women as of yet, then what where the females? The bible simply calls them "man":

Genesis 1:27
So God created man is his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.

Final thought:

What the hell does anybody really KNOW anyway??

Has anybody here actually looked under a microscope, and performed the actual hands on scientific study that supposedly validates the claims on gender? After reading the book "Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television", I'm left to ponder on the idea that chances are, if it's peddled in the media, it's either complete bull-sh!t, or at least peppered with it....

2+2 is 5! The internet wouldn't lie! :wink:
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Re: When will men wear women's clothing...

Postby moonshadow » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:23 am

As far as the dictionary...

Well, sometimes words have odd meanings...

Lets just say that next time your youngsters wants to know where babies come from... just answer "congress"...

When the kid is old enough to read the dictionary.... they'll understand...! :wink: :!:
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