To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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hoborob
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by hoborob »

I feel that I must put in my $.02 here. I do not accept the statement that heels are for one sex or the other or that when wearing heels one is trying to imitate the other. I have myself worn heels and for certain heights wearing heels actual makes me feel better. Strange as it may seem I deal with lower back pain periodically and wearing something with heels can also ease that pain so that I can be relieved of the problem for a while. Wear a bra can also be used to relieve the back pain issue. A flat declaration of wearing heels/ pantyhose/ bras/ whatever other item clothing you wish to class as female only by a male is that male trying to imitate a female just does not pass that pain relief test. If wearing a particular garment allows you to feel better physically or mentally then wearing it is just that, a comforting article of clothing that allows you to feel good for a while then wear what makes you feel good. That's my $.02
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

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And yes, I do wear plain 40DD bras simply for the support along with my Hanes men's briefs. So I don't have an underwear fetish. Otherwise the jouncing of my breasts is quite painful.

Notice that on this website we use our real masculine names [for those of us who are male] and not feminine made-up names. We do not try to pass as women.

John
Last edited by JohnH on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Caultron
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by Caultron »

BTW, RavenTao (if you're stil there) let me apologize for everyone in the group for your entry being so negative.

Perhaps, "No one but female impersonators and transgendered should ever wear high heels," wasn't even what you meant.

And if you don't want to wear heels, don't.

Just take care not to imply that others shouldn't wear whatever accessories they want, and they'll grant you the same freedom.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by moonshadow »

Speaking for myself, while I don't wear heels, mainly because I don't own a pair (would gladly give it a try if I happened upon a pair that fit in the store), but I do wear skirts that are definitely of the "feminine" nature. Some may assume that I'm attempting to alter my gender, or simply crossdress. As this subject has been hashed over and over again I simply want to say, that as for me, although I can't speak for the group here (although I assume many are of a similar mind), I don't want to emulate a woman, no more than a woman who wears traditionally "manly" things wants to emulate a man.

I simply demand the same freedom to choose that 51% of the population (women) enjoy!

Keyword: FREEDOM. As a man, I am claiming my right to wear what I want, and not be dictated by society's arbitrary rules!

I saw a picture in the paper last night, regarding the grand opening of a new store in Bristol TN. All the men were lined up in their 3 piece penguin suits, and the women were also in line, most were were black trousers but a couple were wearing skirts.... I would like to see a day where it would be acceptable for a man to pose in such a activity as a formal ribbon cutting in the clothing of HIS choice, just as women get to do so.

Anything less simply isn't fair, it isn't right, and it's got to stop. I don't even own a 3 piece suit, and I will never buy one. If I ever have to attend one of those things at work, they have two choices, they can outright buy what they want me to wear and I'll wear it because I'm being forced to, or they can go it without me. But I'm not going to take my own money and buy clothes that I hate just to please "da man". Screw that! :roll:

Now I realize that most of my skirt outfits are not formal appropriate, and I can respect that. But I've seen some shots from people like Caultron, Carl, and Jeff that wear clothing that I feel would be VERY acceptable in a formal event. The picture at the head of this thread looks very nice. Heels and all, and I feel is very appropriate for such events. While not my clothing of choice for leisure. I would gladly wear garments like the one pictured in this thread if I were to have to attend something where a certain level of formality is called for.
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JohnH
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

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I almost feel sorry for RavenTao. We probably will not see him back on this website. I noticed on his first posting that he does not have the desire to wear skirts publicly so he must feel a lot of insecurity breaking out of the coffin sized conventions of men's clothing and grooming.

John
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by Caultron »

JohnH wrote:I almost feel sorry for RavenTao. We probably will not see him back on this website. I noticed on his first posting that he does not have the desire to wear skirts publicly so he must feel a lot of insecurity breaking out of the coffin sized conventions of men's clothing and grooming.
Yes, I don't think we treated him as a newbie who accidentally stepped on a touchy subject.

RavenTao, if you're still out there, again, sorry.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by moonshadow »

Well if thats the case, I can yield my position. Not to the point of apology, but for the sake of becoming better acquainted, I am willing to forget about it.

I do respect a man who will debate. I know debates aren't favorable to many forum rules, but I do find a good debate very fun and often times educational for myself (Ive lost more than I care to admit)

I am somewhat disappointed that the debate seems to be over. Its all in good fun, nothing personal.

Ive been accused of "trolling" in other forums for this reason. Somehow I would imagine if the internet had been around during the times of the great thinkers and philosophers, they too would have been called trolls. Oh well.... generally speaking (not to imply anyone on this site or thread), people seem to have gotten too pansy-fied.

I think skirt cafe is a nice well rounded board. The mods seem to allow mild to moderate debate as long as it doesn't turn into name calling or other bashing. Thats cool, and I can live with that.

So come back if you desire RavenTao, I will drop this debate, but not my position . I look forward to having my question answered, but again, I will respect your wishes if you'd just assume let it go.
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crfriend
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:I think skirt cafe is a nice well rounded board. The mods seem to allow mild to moderate debate as long as it doesn't turn into name calling or other bashing. Thats cool, and I can live with that.
Actually this mod is a big proponent of vigorous debate, but once it degenerates into name-calling or ad-hominem tactics I lose interest pretty quickly as the noise starts to drown out the signal. Ideas are fair game for bashing/arguing; our fellow man, not. It is altogether frequent that a vigorous debate on something can change the opinions of many even if the participants remain steadfast opponents. (Note, too, that two or more people can debate something with great passion and energy without ceding their humanity; I've seen several debates wind up with all the participants heading off for a beer together.)
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hoborob
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by hoborob »

I have myself been involved in debates. When you really get down to it the gist of the debate is "Can you convince your opponent to change their opinion." This can only be accomplished when reasoned and sound arguments are made. Name calling or simply shouting down the opposition doesn't accomplish anything. I was once told of a statement made a long time ago that goes "A man convince against his will is of the same opinion still." You can yell at someone and force them to acknowledge your position but if you have not made sound arguments they will ultimately go back to their previous opinions no matter what you do.
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by Caultron »

One of my best all-time mentors once told me, "You can't win an argument with facts," and that was pretty depressing because I've always thought of myself as a facts-and-logic kind of guy.

But then he went on to explain that an argument consists of two people behaving badly toward each other until one person get sick of it and quits (i.e.loses).

This is why arguments frequently involve name-calling, insults, and sometimes physical attacks. There's no thought of reaching a logical solution. The only objective is to make the other person give up in disgust.

Discussions and debates, on the other hand, tend to be based much more on facts and logic. But even then, when facts and logic lead to a conclusion that disagrees with one person's fixed beliefs, they generally try to discredit the facts or logic rather than the fixed beliefs.

None of which makes arguments, discussions, and debates any less interesting to many people. They're great mental workouts and hopefully, each person gets at least a better understanding of (if not a conversion to) their opponent's position.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by RavenTao »

JohnH wrote:I almost feel sorry for RavenTao. We probably will not see him back on this website. I noticed on his first posting that he does not have the desire to wear skirts publicly so he must feel a lot of insecurity breaking out of the coffin sized conventions of men's clothing and grooming.

John
There seems to be a lot of talk here about whether or not it is Ok to wear women's clothing, high heels, fingernail polish, etc. When you can wear whatever you like, without having to talk about it, justify it and rationalyze it, then tell me about insecurity. Until then I am free to make my own choices too, and if I don't want to do something or fight a fight that I don't see as important, I will do as I want, too.
BTW, I have a soft spot in my heart for real transexuals. They are at least honest about their motives. They want to look like women, or become women. Caitlin Jenner comes to mind.
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by RavenTao »

JohnH wrote:I almost feel sorry for RavenTao. We probably will not see him back on this website. I noticed on his first posting that he does not have the desire to wear skirts publicly so he must feel a lot of insecurity breaking out of the coffin sized conventions of men's clothing and grooming.

John
BTW, when I talked about making a judgement call, I was talking about myself. I don't really care if any guy wants to wear high heels, or put on clown's makeup. In fact, I think some women look like clowns with their makeup. Yep, I judge them to look like clowns. I'm not sorry to have stirred up a hornet's nest, either. I'm not one to follow any crowd.
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

Post by Kilty »

RavenTao wrote:
JohnH wrote:I almost feel sorry for RavenTao. We probably will not see him back on this website. I noticed on his first posting that he does not have the desire to wear skirts publicly so he must feel a lot of insecurity breaking out of the coffin sized conventions of men's clothing and grooming.

John
There seems to be a lot of talk here about whether or not it is Ok to wear women's clothing, high heels, fingernail polish, etc. When you can wear whatever you like, without having to talk about it, justify it and rationalyze it, then tell me about insecurity. Until then I am free to make my own choices too, and if I don't want to do something or fight a fight that I don't see as important, I will do as I want, too.
BTW, I have a soft spot in my heart for real transexuals. They are at least honest about their motives. They want to look like women, or become women. Caitlin Jenner comes to mind.
I thought I would throw my hat into the ring... I don't think the majority here are looking to "transition" to women, or what they interpret as feminine, men here just prefer having the option of skirts or dresses alongside trousers and shorts. For men, generally the only option is the kilt, which can be pricey, whereas a simple pencil skirt, either a smart one for work or a denim one for casual is a fraction of the price. As for transexuals, Caitlyn is still a man according to latest news reports, albeit with boobs... there is more to being a woman than playing dress up and tottering around in heels, dressed as a teenage girl like Jenner does. Might sound brutal but that's what the majority who read of Jenner and these antics would perceive... it seemed as a boring dad on the reality show he was in the background and wanted his 15 minutes of fame. Most who transition just get on with their lives as women, some even losing contact with family members who ostracize them for their choice or who cant get their heads around it. Some go thru all that as they may feel dressing in skirts and dresses required being a woman. A lot may even take their own lives after they realize the irreversible change they have made and regret that choice.

A skirt without tights or nice boots for some guys here might not look right, wearing a skirt with mens shoes will just look odd. Adding a handbag for some completes their look, but they are still men, not wishing to pass as women but just enjoying the feel of a skirt as an additional wardrobe item. If that's not your thing, then I don't know what you are looking for on this forum :roll:
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

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RavenTao wrote:There seems to be a lot of talk here about whether or not it is Ok to wear women's clothing, high heels, fingernail polish, etc. When you can wear whatever you like, without having to talk about it, justify it and rationalyze it, then tell me about insecurity. Until then I am free to make my own choices too, and if I don't want to do something or fight a fight that I don't see as important, I will do as I want, too.
Much revolves around the precise definition of "women's" clothing. Is this about garb that only women are "allowed" to wear, or is it something that is only customarily worn by women in the local environment? The difference is sometimes subtle, but important.
BTW, I have a soft spot in my heart for real transexuals. They are at least honest about their motives. They want to look like women, or become women. Caitlin Jenner comes to mind.
For the sake of argument, I'll ignore what definitely sounded like an intended slight, and point up that this is primarily a forum for men, who are happy being men but who reject some of the local environment's opinion of what's "OK" on men and what's not. This is rather clearly stated in several places here, which are all "recommended reading" for newcomers. We do hold the "large tent" view, however, and understand that not every male is an "alpha-dog" and that perceived gender can exist on a continuum. We view rigid stereotypes as inane, immature, and counter-productive. Contemplate these thoughts for a bit.
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Caultron
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Re: To Dress Or Not To Dress, Part 2

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RavenTao wrote:BTW, when I talked about making a judgement call, I was talking about myself. I don't really care if any guy wants to wear high heels, or put on clown's makeup. In fact, I think some women look like clowns with their makeup. Yep, I judge them to look like clowns. I'm not sorry to have stirred up a hornet's nest, either. I'm not one to follow any crowd.
That's more or less the rule here, RavenTao: be yourself but don't criticize others for being themselves.

As to following the crowd, we all gave that up the minute we stepped into a skirt.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

caultron
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